#  Video: Religion and Democratic Ideals: Rematriation, Land, and Healing 

 





November 14, 2024

 

 

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"Rematriation, Land, and Healing," featured co-founder of Women of Bears Ears, Cynthia Wilson, and board member of Women of Bears Ears, Doreen Bird. Assistant Dean for Religion and Public Life, Hussein Rashid, served as moderator. How we steward our land—and the lands of others—brings up essential questions of belonging, indigeneity, and spiritual and political governance. How do different types of stewardship impact how we enact democracy in and with the land we occupy? This session examined how we relate to the natural world around us and the possibilities—and obstacles—for strengthening those relationships through our democratic institutions.

This was the fourth of four sessions in the Religion and Democratic Ideals series. This series focused on where religion intersects with democratic ideals and institutions.



 

FULL TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKER 1: Harvard Divinity School.

SPEAKER 2: Religion and democratic ideals, rematriation, land, and healing, October 22, 2024.

HUSSEIN RASHID: I am Hussein Rashid, assistant Dean for religion and public life at Harvard Divinity School. Harvard University is located on the traditional and ancestral land of the Massachusett, the original inhabitants of what is now known as Boston and Cambridge. We will pay respect to the people of the Massachusett tribe past and present and honor the land itself, which remains sacred to the Massachusett people.

Welcome, and thank you for being here. Religion and public life is dedicated to service of just world in peace. We work with a dynamic method that has religious literacy at its core and brings in critical analysis to understand and challenge systems of inequity.

Our focus on just peace building recognizes that a peace without justice is not sustainable. The goal of our programming is to bring analysis from experts, including academics and practitioners and those living in inequitable systems and offer some ways forward to build a more just world. The program is founded and led by Diane Elmore, associate Dean for OTL.

This series, like all our programming, would not be possible without the support of our team, including Reem, Hillarie, Anna, Natalie, Tammy, and Rochelle. I would also want to mention Bakalova's, the student who conceived of this series and has been instrumental in putting it together. Thanks to them all.

The series emerged from conversations with students about what politics and democracy mean. It became clear through these conversations that democracies exist in service to ideals. We are a programme that looks at structural inequities, so our response has to be about those structures functioning in our current political moment and thus creating structure-- and working towards creating structures of equitability. We are trying to respond to what we feel our students are asking of us, while making sure we are true to who we are.

A liberal democracy should produce societies that are inclusive, equitable, dynamic, and responsive to the needs of its citizens. Thinking about outcomes is-- thinking about outcomes that we want from a democratic system creates space for us to construct pathways to achieving those goals. For religion and public life, the conversation is thus about democratic ideals.

The focus of ideals of equitable and inclusive societies, where every member is treated as valuable, that is our lead-in to just peace building. This event, the fourth in a series on rematriation land and healing, engages us with the beginning of what democracy means in the context of the United States, raising questions of who is included and who is excluded. More importantly, it redirects our attentions to ways of being in the world that are more relational and thinking about how we can heal by reimagining how the world works.

Tonight, we have two amazing speakers, Cynthia Wilson and Dr. Doreen Bird. Cynthia Wilson, who's Dine, is a PhD student at UC Berkeley in environmental science, policy, and management and the society and environment division focused on Indigenous lands, food, and water issues. Since 2016, she helped lead the cutting edge of Indigenous land conservation and advocacy and security protection of the 1.36 million acre Bears Ears National monument.

She serves as the co-founder for the women of Bears Ears, who seeks to restore matrilineal roles and leadership amongst Indigenous communities. She brings her experience in ancestral lands protections through grassroots community organizing, programming and interest to advance tribal sovereignty and self-determination through Native-led nonprofits and Native-led research. Dr. Doreen Bird is from Santo Domingo Pueblo, New Mexico.

She received her bachelor of psychology and master of public health degrees from the University of New Mexico and doctorate of justice systems from ASU school of social transformation. Her strengths come from her deep rooted connections to her language, land, and culture, as well as her spiritual ties to her ancestors and Indigenous knowledge. Dr. Bird has six children and four grandchildren, which she loves to spend time with in nature, as well as participating in ceremonial dances and perpetuation of their heritage and culture.

Dr. Bird is a board member of Women of Bears Ears and a mentor to Native students pursuing higher education. Welcome, and thank you both for taking the time to be with us this evening. I'd like to begin by just asking a question for each of you for the sake of our audience, who may not be familiar with what we're speaking about tonight. What does our topic mean to you of rematriation, land, and healing? And Doreen, if I could ask you to start, please?

DOREEN BIRD: OK, sure. Thank you so very much for having us here. And along with the land, I'd like to also acknowledge and recognize everyone's ancestors that come together today in this co-learning environment. For me, rematriation is about reclaiming the spaces that have been taken over by patriarchy, capitalism, colonialism, and those things that have oppressed Indigenous women around the world. So it's reclaiming those spaces and sharing our knowledge and putting our energy and our love into these dialogues and conversations.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Thank you so much. Cynthia, would you like to add anything.

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah. And I think, first of all, I'll introduce my clan. \[SPEAKING NATIVE AMERICAN\] And by sharing my clans, I'm sharing my matrilineal lineage. And to me, what rematriation mean is welcoming not only all of you, but also welcoming my ancestors within my lineage in how to restore their knowledges by simply reflecting back on who we are and where we come from.

And for me, I think rematriation is coming back to our home teachings, where we have our first access to fire, the warmth of our family in water, in our presence, and also how the air re-circulate knowledge within our family, and knowing those responsibilities into society as a collective community. So that's how I view what we talk about when we're thinking about rematriation, land, and healing.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Thank you, Cynthia. Can I follow up? I think I'm taken by the fact, or I think a lot about the fact that we are in a space where we are all speaking English. English was my first language, but it wasn't necessarily my parents' or my grandparents' first language.

By virtue of being colonized, they learned English generationally. And they lost-- and I, in particular, lost a lot of the languages that they knew. And at least for me, it feels like part of the way of seeing the world when you have a language with three genders, which is a Gujarati, one of the languages my parents' generation spoke. Or when you have ideas of a dual, where people can come together, what does it mean to use a language other than English to engage with the way you see the world?

CYNTHIA WILSON: I think our language. I view it as a living entity in itself just because of how it was taught to me that we don't own language. And a lot of our teachings come from oral traditions by non-human beings. And so when we speak our language, I think it's a powerful way of interacting and engaging and showing our presence in this world as a Earth's surface being.

And it's very hard to translate. I think this is where we clash in public society. For example, when we talk about prayer in English context, does it really define what we mean when we're talking about prayer? In my language, Dine language, we would say \[SPEAKING NATIVE AMERICAN\].

Atsoo literally means our tongue. And dillzan means upholding reverence. Whereas, the words that comes out of our mouth, the myths that comes out of our mouth off our tongue travels a long journey to the outer world.

And the words that we speak is heard by the quote, unquote, "holy people" or the deities that all have a significant place in our stories, in our oral traditions. So language is what activates our living landscape. And that's how we are able to connect our inner being with the outer world.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Doreen, I'm taken with how Cynthia's describing this act of prayer. And it seems that with the work that you both have done, but speaking to you first, or inviting you first to respond, is that there seems to be a consciousness and awareness that there is a continuity. In English, when we talk about religion, I'm playing with the idea of prayer you just offered us, Cynthia.

But when we think about religion, when we say that in English, we're talking about a relationship between the individual and the sacred or perhaps something communal in relation to the sacred. That there is a separation that we're trying to engage with. But it sounds like there is a more awareness that-- what we would say, it's sacred. And again, I think English is limiting here.

But that what we say is sacred is, in fact, all encompassing and surround us. We're thinking much more of oneness and unity in this engagement. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

DOREEN BIRD: I think that makes sense to me. Because not only do we speak and hear our song and dance, our steps are sacred. My uncle had mentioned the thought of having moccasins on. And as we step on the dirt, that's a very sacred thing.

It seem just walking on the dirt, but there's also-- our ancestors have been buried in the Earth and they can hear us treading gently. So even in our way of being and calling for prayers. And it's like guidance because this world can get pretty crazy.

And so what can we do as humans in our power to make a difference? And if it can be connecting with our ancestral knowledge or spirituality, connecting to creator or the creator, the being, the energy within us to produce something good in this world, I think, that's made me think of, as I was hearing Cynthia talk. We're also transferring that information and that knowledge onto our future generations, I think, is also a huge part of rematriation because it is this knowledge that we can't just buy it.

I think of we can't buy this knowledge at a university. It's something that's lived. And we're blessed to have it from our grandmothers, our grandfathers, our community. So I'll just stop there.

HUSSEIN RASHID: So please, don't feel the urge to stop. But I think as I'm listening to you both-- we're talking about Democratic ideals within the context of the United States, in the nation of the United States. And yet, we talk about other types of nations within the borders of the United States, tribal nations.

And when you talk about this unity, this oneness, this continuity of engagement across time through generational knowledge, through place, stepping on the dirt as a sacred act, how does that-- does it contribute to a different sense of the nation? Is nation even the right language to use? Again, is this a language that works in English-- a word that works in English that may not necessarily work for us conceptually for what you're trying to express?

DOREEN BIRD: I don't think it works. I think that's kind of a separate-- that's the thing is the assumption when we use the English language, it's so minimizing to the extent of our beings. But so it's like we have to choose the right words to get close to what we're trying to explain.

And I don't think it's adequate enough. Because for us, our language is not written. And I think with English, that's like a huge assumption that everybody's going to get it. From our community, I say, having public comments or public meetings, for example, on huge issues, like protecting our sacred places.

I don't think having a public meeting somewhere is a culturally appropriate method of engaging with our elders or our youth. And the assumption of putting it all in English or even online, those are just creating more and more barriers. I say, this thing about being genuine, I think, breaks down a lot of barriers.

HUSSEIN RASHID: What is being genuine? Yeah, what does being genuine mean for the two of you?

DOREEN BIRD: And then again, it's picking those right words. Like authentic, I thought, was the right-- actually carrying. For me, it's like what my grandmothers taught me about loving one another, taking care of each other, looking out for each other's best interests, things like that, instead of having ulterior motives. But I don't know if those are just a few things I could just think of. What about you, Cynthia?

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah, I think being genuine means simply what you're already mentioned is, how to be a good relative. And I think kinship is a huge part of our society that has been forgotten in how to work together collectively. And it's challenging in how that is, I guess, shaped in English context, in how things-- even me being in academia, how fields of studies are compartmentalized and separate.

They separate our teachings. Whereas our teachings coming from our oral traditions is not separate. It's very much building on each other and also learning from good and bad through experience, lived experience in our realities.

But at the end of the day, we all breathe the same air. We all come-- we all live on the same soil. And we all come from a mother. And I think we forget the teachings, the nurturing teachings and the love and the givingness coming from our embodied teachings, from our mother, and from the land and how we relate those teachings to the cosmos or to whatever all living beings around us.

And I think when we think about in the context of how we shape our prayer is really acknowledging our environment and honoring the Earth, honoring the cosmos, the universe, and honoring the mountain people, the water people, and all living beings around us before we acknowledge ourself as an individual. And I think that's where we show our presence as the Earth's surface being that we are here as humans to contribute our gifts in society, which is our voice and our knowledge. And how do we contribute those two powerful tools as humans in speaking for and protecting all these living beings in place.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Cynthia, thank you. There's a lot there I want to unpack. So let me start with the first part, where you talk about divided knowledge. Academia divides knowledge.

Whereas, traditionally, it sounds like you're saying that the types of knowledge that you learn about academically would not be separate in the same way in terms of the oral tradition, in terms of how generational knowledge is passed along. Now, I know you've been doing a lot of work on this through your own academic-- your academic work and obviously your own activism and advocacy. Can you help me and our audience, through an example, understand what divided knowledge versus a unified knowledge looks like for you?

CYNTHIA WILSON: I think just reflecting on my advocacy work, especially when we're talking about, how do we reclaim access to public lands? Which are our ancestral lands, but now managed by federal agencies like BLM or US Forest Service or National Park services.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Sorry, can I enter for one second. BLM in this context means Bureau of Land Management, correct?

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Thank you.

CYNTHIA WILSON: Thank you. And so lands managed by federal agencies rely on the English context written in law, which is very different than our practical and lived experiences on these ancestral landscapes that we call our cultural living landscape. And so when the proclamation of, for example, a Bears Ears National monument, it highlights it as a living landscape. But the Department of Interior probably doesn't know what that means in itself.

And they also highlight co-management. And when you talk to people at the grassroots level in our community, there's misconception or misunderstanding of what those term means. Like an elder mentioned that management to her is actually a racial term because we've been managed by the-- systemic racist term because she views management-- as Native Americans, we've been managed by the federal government all our lives. So why would we perpetuate that when we're talking about protecting our ancestral lands?

And even stewardship also have been out there. And I've heard some quotes that Indigenous people say that we're not stewards of the nature world. We are a part of that world. And we're not above it, or we're not below it, but we are one as a collective.

And I think these teachings, when you unpack those words, it doesn't really fall in line with the local people's way of engaging with the landscape. And I think that's where we get lost in language translation when it comes to English context in legal term. And even like sacred coming from sacrament. Or when we talk to our elders, they often reference holy beings.

But you reflect that to the Bible as Holy Bible. So there's a lot of-- and our language is very descriptive and very practical. And it's hard to shape into legal terms, I guess, in the English context in that way.

HUSSEIN RASHID: So it sounds like there's a concern that a lot of this language is about vertical relationships, about power relationships, management, stewardship. And if I'm understanding you correctly, you're expressing an idea of a more horizontal relationship, whether it is with the land or the trees, other living beings, the sacred, again, for lack of a better term, that it's a much more horizontal relationship. Am I understanding that correctly?

CYNTHIA WILSON: I think not really in terms of linear relationships but more as a circular relationship. And again, I think about our teachings coming from the home. It involves our thinking, planning, living, and reflecting or reciprocating that knowledge that we have been learning from through our creation stories.

It doesn't die with us. It is rooted back in the ground. And it sprouts and cultivates knowledge with the future generation again. So I think that's why it's important to be actively and physically being present on the landscape, using our senses, using the smell, yeah, our senses, listening, being present. And I think, sometimes, we forget that we have those qualities as human beings in, yeah, how to call back on our ancestors that we're still here and we're still living our obligation as, I don't know, speaking up and utilizing our gifts as humans to continue to protect those beings.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Doreen, I saw you took yourself off mute for a second. Would you like to chime in on this one?

DOREEN BIRD: Sure. When I heard you say, the horizontal, I'm like, no, it's not either vertical or horizontal, almost like it's not black and white. It's all encompassing. So just like a different paradigm. Being it. Even I've seen like dirt in different contexts having a negative connotation, being dirty.

But to me, I say I come from the dirt. And literally, my village has mud homes. Our roads are still dirt. They're not paved over. And I love the dirt.

And I remember carrying one of my children and driving off the road to go find little rocks that had dirt in them because I wanted to taste the dirt so much. I think I was craving dirt during one of my pregnancies. But it just made me think of just a different way of thinking, being.

HUSSEIN RASHID: So with that--

DOREEN BIRD: Good question.

HUSSEIN RASHID: No, thank you. Thank you, I really do appreciate you both taking the time to educate me and helping me think in ways that are new to me and hopefully to much of our audience. I think I listened-- again, listening to you both speak about this, and Cynthia, you started this conversation about the relationship to BLM, the connection to BLM, the Bureau of Land Management, that there is this language of power that comes into play. And Doreen, you mentioned it a little bit as well.

And I think if you could speak to, how do we create then-- we have these structures. We have institutional structures. How do we create a more inclusive relationship so it's not-- and I think language is part of it.

But also, what is that authentic care, that relationality that you spoke about, Doreen, earlier? How do we generate that in these institutional systems? Can we even?

DOREEN BIRD: I'd say food. I'd say break bread. And I think that's the best way for-- need to help build authentic relationships. For example, in my work in community based participatory research, that's like, how do we-- we do this stuff in our communities.

And we do it by coming together, sharing a meal, having dialogue. And as we dialogue during the meal, our values teach us that we're also swallowing the knowledge that we're gaining. So if we were all eating during this time, like I am still taking this in, it's like we're ingesting it.

And so that's another way of being. It's not just black and white. It's actually embodying that knowledge that Cynthia was talking about. I just love that it gave me an image, too. Just think about nursing.

I'm on a breastfeeding photo from way back when. And I wanted to encourage that because it's so natural. And it's beautiful. And it's the best nutritionally for our babies.

But now, with this modern, I say, it's like colonization. It's like the bottle seems to be what people go to, but that's not natural. And I just like-- not only that, that's just one example. Why are we having to fight to protect clean water?

Things that seem like no brainers, it seems like we're getting away from those things. And I think going back to the topic of rematriation, the land, and healing, it's about recalling those teachings that we got from our ancestors.

And it was not only like from my mom and my grandmother and my aunties, but it's like 10,000 generations before them, the knowledge that gets transmitted through our DNA. I think those are the things that we need to protect in this world to help sustain humanity and our planet and the natural environment, and including the water, the animals, the plants, all of that. I think that's why we're doing what we do because we feel so strongly that that's important. It might seem simple, but the simple things in life, I think, are pretty awesome.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Yeah. Cynthia, what do you think about that? Is it possible to create more empathetic, more relational attitudes with our current institutions?

CYNTHIA WILSON: I think what you mentioned earlier, how to generate care, I thought about as, I think, simply creating space for a collective. Because when I'm thinking about Bears Ears national monument advocacy, there's the government's Department of Interior, federal government, or agencies. And then there's tribal governments that have consultation and sovereignty roles to collaborate.

But us as grassroots individuals, who live on these landscapes and have teachings and generational knowledge and stories of these landscapes are only considered listening roles. But we don't have the power of our direct connections to these spaces or our contributions to the spaces. And what Doreen mentioned about these public comments are not-- they're listening roles.

Again, that doesn't really do much for us as grassroots individuals, who have a wealth of knowledge of these ancestral spaces. So when think about that-- and I think simple terms is that's why there's a lot of conversations around land back. Even in the context of rematriation, how can we repatriate land back to the original people that inherited from these landscapes?

And creating space to engage those conversations and restoring land to the people so that they can reactivate those teachings through language, through practices, through ceremonies. And I think there's a lot of challenge with that because of capacity. I think, especially when we talk about tribal governments, there's lack of capacity because public lands and land back stuff. There's a lot more issues that tribal governments deal with.

For my community, we still don't have running water. We still don't have electricity. And those are basic human needs that are priority over debating with federal land agencies that basically stole land from us of these resources, abundant resources that we used to rely on for firewood, for medicine, for food, for hunting.

So it's very challenging, again, going back to the legal context in how to bridge those ways of collaborating and engaging. So I think, somehow, creating space and providing that land because with that land is in itself holds our knowledge and holds our relationships and holds our stories. But we are displaced from our ancestral lands.

And how can we engage in these conversations when we don't have that space to continue these practical teachings? So yeah, that's what comes to mind.

HUSSEIN RASHID: I want to pick up on this thread of land back and capacity for the land back. But before I get there, Doreen just talked about clean water as being part of the conversation we need to have, the care of land. And you've mentioned a couple of times, animals and other living creatures, the idea of forming a collective.

So I will say when I was thinking about democratic ideals and equitable inclusion, I was thinking about human beings. And it sounds like that was a very limited worldview. That really, we're thinking about an equitable society has to include the role of land, the role of water, the role of animals.

That has to be included in our conception of building equitable societies, that they, too, are part of our-- as you said, it's not a horizontal relationship. It's a comprehensive relationship. So we have to be thinking comprehensively about who's included in.

So how do we-- and this may be too big a question. But if you have any thoughts, how do we build a system that is equitable, that is inclusive of the land, of the water, of the animals, of the ancestors? How do we think about creating those systems from the point we're at now?

DOREEN BIRD: I would say, first of all, not thinking of them as resources because that's what's in the language of the federal government right there, natural resources. But if you look at the forward movement of the Maori people in Aoteroa, New Zealand, they were able to protect their river by getting it personhood. I could see there, it goes again to the language, to the semantics, to what can go holed up in law, in the court.

And all these systems aren't made for us. So we're having to figure out, how do we protect humanity because we need clean water more than we need more oil wells, or uranium mines, or lithium mines? It's nonstop what the government see as resources. And I think we all depend on each other as far as living creatures on this environment that we're blessed with to be earthlings, to be on Earth.

It's amazing. So people are taking it for granted. And I think that was a start, at least. Thinking of it as personhood, is that the type of language that we're going to have? Because I see people begging and that doesn't even work.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Cynthia, did you have any thoughts on that question of how we can build a more equitable, inclusive systems?

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah, I think Doreen is right on in terms of how we perceive ourselves in this world, as in how we treat-- again, how powerful our voice is and how we treat these other living, breathing beings. Because from our stories, they are the one that gave us language. They are the one that gave us teachings in our songs and the makeup of our home and nourishing us with the food to basically live.

So we're just like a speck of human beings that are occupying their space, yet with all the boundaries in place, the fences, we are doing more damage as humans than we are losing how we engage in a reciprocal manner. Because when we crossed the river-- when there's a bridge and we cross the river, we provide an offering as a way to ask for forgiveness of this man-made structure.

Or when we cross a-- where we live, there's comb wash. In our stories, it's comb ridge. It's a long ridge going for miles and miles, beautiful ridge, red rock. And in our teachings or our stories as Dine people, the ridge is like the Mother Earth's backbone.

But they bombed part of the ridge to provide a road. So now, there's a highway that goes through the ridge. So every time-- I remember growing up, my grandfather, who was a medicine man, he would offer an Earth song, again, as a way of asking for healing and asking for forgiveness and asking for a safe journey forward as well.

So it's like, how do we-- and not many people come with these teachings from these cultural contexts or oral traditions. And I think that's where there's-- and even our own people, how we've been assimilated. And a lot of our people grew up in urban settings, displaced from their home connections. And I think that's where it's important of knowing and asking questions of who you are and where you come from to understand the significance of place and the significance of our role as humans in general, in what humanity means to us, as Doreen has been talking about.

HUSSEIN RASHID: So picking up on that idea of knowing who you are and where you come from. So I'm from New York, an area that was previously stewarded by the Lenape people. And one of the things that I've heard in that context is-- well, let me take it back. Let me not relate what I've heard in case I misrepresent.

Let me ask you a question about land back and come back to this idea of land back that you brought up earlier. Who is the land going back to? Is the land going back to people, or is the land going back to itself?

In other words, are we ceding that vertical relationship over land and we need to relearn how to-- some of us need to relearn how to live in relationship with it again? Or is this really about broader stewardship. In other words, how are we conceiving of land in land back?

CYNTHIA WILSON: The land will always be there is what our elders say. That it's us that we should be worried about. The land is powerful in itself. And even elders have told me that you're not supposed to talk about land too much, unless you provide the offering to land.

I think there's a certain protocol and way of engaging back on those landscapes. And I think it's challenging the way land has been used the form of capitalism in what Doreen mentioned as viewed as resources, which doesn't make sense to me. Because my community still doesn't have water or electricity.

The resources are for the larger populated areas. But yet, it's my community that are still engaging with these direct relationships to the land. And I think it's coming down to-- yeah, well, I can only speak for myself and just thinking of how my family engages with the land.

And how can we continue to engage these teachings with future generations so they know the value in the way that we were taught. But yeah, I don't know if Doreen has anything to add.

DOREEN BIRD: I just wanted to say that I'm proud of you, Hussein, for your comment because it showed that you learn what we're talking about. When you said, who are we giving the land back to, to people, to itself? And so now, that's expanding the thinking of land not just as resource, not just something that can be purchased.

Even in some of my readings, I read about the term "sovereignty" being tied to land ownership because the government needed to know who to take the land from. So they tied the sovereignty to land. But yet, that's a term that a lot of tribal leaders now use as like-- it's almost like owning something that really wasn't taking ownership.

Or at least, they're trying to use it in a better way, I think, than what the term was developed for in the first place. But I loved how you said that, returning the land back to land. Because then it's like the wholeness of it, the thriving, the life giving forces instead of the extraction, the taking from, the depleting, all of that, I think, that's where we're trying to raise that flag of that's not how we should be engaging in this world.

If we want to keep going on as a race, as a people, as future generations, and having a good life, we're trying to raise those flags. But like I said, I've seen people begging and it's not working. So are we going to have these conversations?

And I think about, back to the teaching from my grandma, like love one another, take care of one another. OK, so now, given my education, all the literature that I read about the mistreatment of the US government onto Indigenous peoples, about some of the conversations we're having, how do we even work through all that and not be angry and not be hateful? But can we still have that loving kindness that was in our teachings?

How can we bring that forward? And I think that's part of what your question earlier is like, is it possible? And I think it's only possible through love. Because yeah, that's what keeps me back to being balanced after facing or feeling macro, microaggressions, or structural racism, all of that stuff.

The only thing that brings me back is the love. So I think that must be the way. I think, somehow, all of us were born from a woman. And if that embodied teaching of what helped us to sustain life, that I think is probably something we should draw upon.

With this conversation, how can we keep it going? Even as far as democratic ideals, it seems there are a lot of barriers. But there's probably more commonalities to the humanity and through love.

HUSSEIN RASHID: I want to-- I have two follow-up questions. But the first one is-- Doreen, and first of all, thank you for helping me learn. If I've done anything that's made you proud, it's because of your conversations with me. I would like to-- we started with language. I want to turn back to language because you're talking about love now.

And I think in the context of the United States, love has a particular-- almost reflects of Christian understanding to it. And I don't hear you speaking of love in that way. It sounds like it's a really active force.

And I'd like to just have you delve in a little bit when you're talking about love, what it is you mean by love in this context and love and kindness.

DOREEN BIRD: \[SPEAKING NATIVE AMERICAN\]. And honoring my ancestors through speaking our language, that's love. And transferring of Indigenous knowledges, that's love. And learning how my grandparents overcame adversity, overcame the hatred of colonialism, having forced religion upon us. The Catholic church still sits in our village.

And we have love and kindness and caring for that. Our ancestors learn how to become friends with their oppressors. They probably didn't even know. I almost said, enemies, but I don't think that was the right word.

I don't think they saw them as enemies. But I think those kinds of something that's deep in our human being that we can overcome and maybe forgive, still get up and move forward and have a laugh and become friends. Having that respect, I guess, that deep rooted respect that we're all here trying to have a good life.

That's love. So I have love in my heart for what the people are going through in Palestine. And it makes it you wonder, how can you not have compassion or a heart for that? So I think if you don't have a compassion or heart for that, I think that's the absence of love. And so perhaps, maybe that can give somebody some ideas.

HUSSEIN RASHID: So I want to try to process because I think this is-- and Cynthia, please, this is an open invitation to you to help me walk through this as well. As I hear you describing love, it is the manifestation, I guess, for lack of a better term, of this worldview you've been talking about, this interconnectedness. And love then is the transformational way of being in the world, of recognizing our connectedness, even when relationships are not healthy.

You use the language of oppression. It's not an enemy, it's not necessarily oppositional. But you're still bounded by something. And so love is this transformational way of being that recognizes that connectedness. Is that a fair reading of what you're saying?

DOREEN BIRD: I believe so. I mean, as you were saying that, Hussein, I'm sorry, but I did see a question pop up. And so you were directing that question to me. But the last part is I agree with what you were saying, as far as this trans-relational connectedness. That I heard or I read somewhere is a key in educating our youth is making those translational connections. So I wonder if that can also work with adults. I mean, is that the same as just having empathy, putting yourself-- really being connected or understanding someone?

HUSSEIN RASHID: But empathy to me feels like a one-to-one, like it's you and me relationship. And you use the language of compassion, which I think is not as intense as empathy, but is also broader. I mean, that's my sense that it's more broader, that you can feel compassion for somebody else's suffering. But they're decent enough, you don't feel empathy. But through that compassion, you recognize-- it reinforces the connectedness.

DOREEN BIRD: Definitely. Because as you were speaking, I could definitely picture my grandmother. I mean, and they embodied these things. And that's how we learned through hearing them and seeing them.

I've seen my grandmother show love for animals so much. I mean, just seeing her hands and welcoming back an animal to her home with such love and care and sacredness, those are the types of learnings, I think, that it's hard to explain.

HUSSEIN RASHID: And that's what gets passed out. This is that intergenerational knowledge, that passing of being, yeah. Cynthia, I mean, if you want to chime in on this, but I do have a question. Because Doreen in this has got me thinking about this question of healing again.

And you mentioned your grandfather was a medicine man. And I think that-- I don't think there's a full understanding of what medicine means when we talk about medicine man. Again, I think English is misleading us. And I think popular perceptions of Indigenous people mislead us. So I don't know if you'd be willing to speak a little bit into what medicine means in this context.

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah, I think it's the issue with English context again. But he's referred to as \[SPEAKING NATIVE AMERICAN\], which literal translation is actually a singer. And I think through being a singer is being somebody that holds a lot of the oral traditions since time immemorial because these are verbally expressed in ceremony.

And again, using our language is what brings out a lot of those teachings. And I think that's where I think about love is being present and making time and being engaged and actively listening in those moments, such as during ceremony, or whatever it may be. But being actively engaged in the language and where the language takes you.

It takes you on a long journey in that short amount of time. And I think it's part of the healing process is reabsorbing those ancestral teachings and ways of healing, of connecting, and knowing the medicines. Medicines are involved in that space.

And the water is involved in that space. The fire is involved in that space. And all those elements are also involved in our inner being. And I think, how do we embody our inner beings or elemental beings with the outer environment?

And how do we bring balance to that space is all about healing in how do we engage our inner soul with the outer soul? I think it just comes down to actively being present. And showing up, I think, is what counts as love as well, showing up for somebody or showing up.

And again, using your gifts as a human to contribute your knowledge. I think our voice and our knowledge are key tools that we can use to express our love and to express what Doreen talks about of the intergenerational transmission of knowledge. But when I-- yeah, I think for me, just observing and seeing my grandfather in practice made me value-- I always want it to be somethi-- or have a career in something in health field because what he was doing, he knew about the medicines, the plant medicines.

So I decided to do a career in nutrition. But that in Western context was very different than how my grandfather knew nutrition with the landscape, food as a living being, then food as a supplement or nutritional value, and how stories ties into food with hunting rituals and things like that. It wasn't until I started being actively engaged and listening-- I took a lot of the cultural teachings for granted, even when my grandpa was still living because he passed when I was in 8th grade.

It wasn't until I started the advocacy work with reclaiming Bears Ears national monument, that's when I was deeply involved and engaged with the elders on our board of directors with the nonprofit I worked for. And that's where I had the time and space to interview more elders and learn about our stories tied to this place that we call Bears Ears.

And that's when a lot of my-- that's when I feel more engaged with who I am and how I represent myself as a Dine woman. And I think that it takes a while. Even I have six younger siblings and I try to emphasize the importance of our language and how valuable our homelands are to us.

And again, going back to our teachings in our home, teachings from our moms and our matrilineal ties, which includes my grandfather, my mom's dad, and how he comes from his mom's lineage. So it's a whole-- sorry but yeah.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Very helpful, Cynthia, thank you. I don't think I said this at the beginning, so I apologize for that. But I do want to mention that Cynthia has served as a fellow for OPL in the past. Hopefully, will come back and serve as a fellow for us again in the future. And Doreen has come as a guest lecturer several times to our classes with Cynthia's invitation.

I want to pick up this thread of food is healing. Because I don't think you spoke much about your own initial research about the potato work that you were doing and its history and its relationship to the people. And you will forgive me because my memory is not as great as it used to be. But one of you also at one point told a story about a particular type of sheep that was in the territories that was important to the community. And if we're thinking about who is not in this conversation, I'd love to hear about the potatoes and about the sheep.

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah, Doreen's actually growing the Bears Ears' potato.

DOREEN BIRD: Yes, they're the cutest, tiniest little potatoes. I have to show them. And when I met Cynthia, she fed me these potatoes. See how tiny they are. And that was when Secretary Deb Haaland came to Bears Ears.

And she made this with atole, blue corn atole. And when I ate it, it was like snap, crackle, pop in my body because that's the only way I can explain it. Because it was like things were happening. And I was like, whoa, is that reawakening my genetic memory?

Because of our ancestors, had migrated from the lands of the Bears Ears area. And so great potatoes is just love. Aren't they so cute?

HUSSEIN RASHID: So is that-- sorry, is that a mature potato? Is that a mature béziers potato?

DOREEN BIRD: Yes. Yes, this is what grew from a previous year. And Cynthia, if you want to share the story of how they were found.

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah, the potatoes were actually dated back by anthropologists. They dated back 11,000 years from a site at Grand Staircase-Escalante national monument. And they dated back by a starch residue on an old grinding stone that was at the Natural History Museum of Utah.

And then I did interviews with elders recalling their memory of this potato. And we call it-- it's a wild potato and it's called selenium jamesii. And we call it the Four Corners potato as well because it grows throughout the Four Corners region.

And it can stay dormant for up to 14 years, depending on the monsoon season. And it's very nutritious. And it's very filling. And it has an Earthy flavor.

HUSSEIN RASHID: And so Cynthia, when you say you found elders who remember it, that would imply that the potato fell out of normal dietary.

CYNTHIA WILSON: I think it was highly valued as a ceremonial food. And also, I think they have been displaced because of the boundaries that divides public lands with reservation lands or tribal lands. I think also drought has been a part of it, since they stayed dormant for that many years. It changes the landscape due to climate change.

But the elders I spoke to recall their grandmother's taste in it. So I feel like-- but some communities and some tribal members-- other tribal members have been growing it. There's a Zuni elder that has been growing it and also Southern Ute.

But I wanted to learn more about Navajo perspective. And how we call it, too, in our language is \[SPEAKING NATIVE AMERICAN\], which my mom, she would call me \[SPEAKING NATIE AMERICAN\]. So the potato, the wild potato is called like my potato child because it has that personhood name to it.

So it's just talking and learning about it. Yeah, like what Doreen said, it's an act of restoring our cultural memory behind the potato. And it's where-- when we engage with this work, it's a way of restoring those teachings and connections to the tiny potato relative.

HUSSEIN RASHID: So Doreen talked about the embodied aspect of it, like tasting it. What did you say, snap, crackle, pop of it that awakens? But Cynthia, you also talked about the ceremonial purpose that it serves.

So it's important then in that transmission of knowledge again. And so if I think about our overarching-- the question I asked earlier about how do we include non-human beings in questions of equitability? When we take out non-human beings, it sounds like we're removing part of ourselves.

We're removing part of our embodied memory. We're removing part of our generational memory or intergenerational memory. And so that these beings are instrumental for us to be human. Am I understanding that correctly?

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah. And when I showed the elders, just like Doreen showed the tiny potato, they were very excited. And yeah, I think it's been missed in our community. It's been missed in our ceremony as a food.

And part of that process of healing is, how can we-- I think that's why when we talk about land back is how do we reconnect back with these, our food relatives? And how can we bring them home and use that to restore our healing practices in our communities? So yeah, the food is always a great example in how that works, or what that--

DOREEN BIRD: Let me add something. So I was under my trampoline because that's where we put the potatoes down. They like shade. And I was weeding. I wanted to make sure that I had a good spot so I could spot the potato when they popped up.

But this breeze came through and I smelled this most beautiful scent. And I looked around for it and it was one of the other previous potatoes had bloomed. And that smell was something to me.

It was profound. And it's probably because it was the first time I'm smelling this potato again. And when I mentioned the genetic transmission through our DNA, I cried when I smelled that potato blossom for the first time. I felt so emotional.

But it was the most beautiful smell. And I think that just smelling it was medicine. So I was calling my children, my grandchildren, come smell this, anybody that could. And there was some that I had tried potting in potting pots. And so I was taking that to people. I wanted to take that everywhere so people could smell that potato. So I felt that even the scent, it was healing.

HUSSEIN RASHID: And I think this comes back to what I heard Cynthia say earlier, that being in the land is engaging your senses. So it's not just the taste, or the feel, or the sight, but it is the smell, it is the sound of it that engages.

DOREEN BIRD: Definitely. And then that reconnect connection there, it's like you recognize something. Because you could just smell any flower. But why would I cry smelling that one out of the blue? And I was thinking also maybe a little romanticizing, oh, these are what our ancestors would smell when they were out in the land.

So that was really a profound moment for me. It took me back. That was one way I can reconnect.

HUSSEIN RASHID: I want to try to express something that I think I'm hearing from both of you in this last exchange. And please, correct me if I misspeak. And then I think we can switch to Q&A because we've got a few coming in through.

But it sounds to me that when we talk, when I hear you saying medicine, you're talking about the thing that heals, whatever that thing that heals is. So you talked about the smell as being medicine. So that becomes healing.

And I think it's important-- or at least the way I'm understanding, it's important for me to try to articulate this is that when we talk about rematriation, land, and healing, it is about thinking of this question of us being in this container together. So not that vertical, not that horizontal relationship, but being contained together. Having that relationality that is healing for us, that allows us to be human, that allows us to think about our embodied memory, that allows us to think about our intergenerational learning, our relationship to other beings, the call to love and kindness, as I understood you to define it, Doreen. And I think that leads me-- so first of all, is that fair?

DOREEN BIRD: I like it. I think it's fair.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Cynthia, are you good with that summation? OK, great.

CYNTHIA WILSON: Well, I was just thinking about the word containment. I don't know, it sounds like-- I thought about a reservation being contained.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Oh, if I said containment, no, I meant container, meaning the world is the container in which we are being held. No, containment is not-- no, not a good word.

DOREEN BIRD: I thought of the globe.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Globe, exactly, yeah. So the question that's come up then is-- so as I'm thinking about land and healing in this context, the question that's come up comes back to our beginning, what is rematriation? So how does rematriation then-- I'm paraphrasing here because it's come up in two different variations. So I want to try to paraphrase it in a way that includes both.

Does rematriation then not only challenge patriarchy-- which I think you said at the beginning, Doreen. Does rematriation then not only challenge patriarchy, but also the very ideas of colonialism? And this is a way to think about deep-- rematriation, which then becomes a way to think about decolonialism.

DOREEN BIRD: I think it makes sense because a lot of-- when I think about colonization, the laws that were written, the thoughts that they had about claiming the land, about how do we almost claimed dominion over something? I just think that's so arrogant.

We're all human. How can somebody claim that they have more power over another? That has always-- something I try to think about, as humans, why do we do that? But I think we're trying to think of alternative ways of being together in this globe.

And so I think that when we talk about rematriation, we do have a different way of thinking. And I think it's not always as black and white, but it is different energies maybe that we draw upon. As females, it's like we're so connected to the moon that it really guides our bodies, I mean, and so versus thinking that we're so disconnected from something like that.

It is just a different way of thinking. So I think it's fair what you're saying. I'm sure there's going to be somebody that could think, like, oh, they said this and they said that and make it sound that I shouldn't have agreed to that. But it's just semantics, too, I think. We're doing our best, given the limitation of the English language.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Cynthia, did you want to chime in on that question of rematriation as a challenge to colonialism and coloniality?

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah, I think so. In terms of-- I think it's a better term than repatriation efforts. Because when we're repatriating even stolen objects or artifacts, rematriation sounds better in restoring it back into the Earth. But I think there's always questions around even sovereignty, how reign is within the word sovereignty.

That signifies kingdom or monarchs, even when we talk about matriarchs or patriarchs. And I think that's where there's a challenge in, what do we mean by rematriation in that context? But again, it came from governmental terms.

And a lot of these governmental terms are actually militant terms, just like how I describe management. So yeah, what Doreen said, it's just challenging in English context. And lately, when I'm talking about my specific homeland and lineages, I've been saying matrilineal relationships as opposed to-- I think when we talk about rematriation is more of the leadership roles in how we use our voice in society, in how we structure our leadership as a collective than as a bottom or top approach, but more as collectively engaged in society.

HUSSEIN RASHID: The last question I have for you is-- the way we like to answer this session is, is there something our audience-- that you would invite our audience to do or to engage with, any of the themes we've talked about today so they, too, can be part of this conversation moving forward?

DOREEN BIRD: I would say advocate for us. And I just did put that. Because I felt like, sometimes, why am I the only one that brings up these hard topics? I'm not at all the meetings out there. We need somebody to speak up on our behalf.

Sometimes, they don't listen to us. OK, I mentioned, I heard an elder, a Dine elder recently, she's saying that they show up for all these frontline activists moments when they want to protect their sacred places. They want to protect-- they don't want more mines going up.

But they're saying, it doesn't work. And so they don't know what's going to work. If them showing up and saying, please don't, if that doesn't work, what's going to work? And so sometimes, it's people don't want to hear from us, but they might hear it from you.

That's a different perspective. So I encourage you all, if any of this-- you can reach back out to us. Make your public comments. Because sometimes, even the language-- they say, for public comments to count, they have to be substantial comments.

And I'm like, but my community members might not have that vocabulary that is considered substantial. Or they totally aren't going to even be there at these public comment meetings. Because I said there, it's not culturally appropriate. So being there for us when we can't be there is the greatest gift. So thank you.

HUSSEIN RASHID: OK, Cynthia, any closing thoughts for our audience members?

CYNTHIA WILSON: Yeah, I think continuing to challenge patriarchal or hierarchy approaches in spaces, especially in nonprofit structures, I think, we've been having a challenge with that in becoming a nonprofit, going from executive director down to board of directors, and things like that. It's very challenging to organize and mobilize as a collective in these common structures that aren't in line with how to move forward as a collective. And I think creating space for that collective dialogue is essential in any groups. I'm even having a challenge with that in academia space within itself. But yeah, continuing to challenge those spaces in opening up for more inclusive dialogue.

HUSSEIN RASHID: Thank you both for taking the time this evening to walk us through questions of rematriation, land, healing, helping us understand that maybe when we think about democratic ideals, we're not thinking big enough as to when we think about equitability and inclusion as to which beings are included and whether we're treating them equitably, recognizing the limits of our language and describing what is happening in the world around us. And I'm deeply, deeply grateful for you taking that time, answer our questions, and walk us through this.

I also want to thank our audience for joining us this evening. And for those of you who've been with us all series, thank you very much. This is the last video in the series. The videos will be posted.

And for those of you who've registered will receive a link to the video series as they post. Thank you and good night.

DOREEN BIRD: Thank you. \[SPEAKING NATIVE AMERICAN\].

SPEAKER 2: Sponsor, religion and public life.

SPEAKER 1: Copyright 2020 by the President and Fellows of Harvard College.



 

 

 



 

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