# Video: Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza April 29, 2025 ![A poster featuring a book cover of "Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza." The cover has a Baby Jesus doll lying next to a lit candle on a pile of rubble.](/sites/g/files/omnuum8216/files/styles/hwp_16_9__480x270/public/2025-04/RCPI%202024-25%20Book%20Series%20Christ%20in%20the%20Rubble%20%281%29.png?h=f66aa429&itok=PW4QM0Pf) Munther Isaac joined Religion and Public Life to discuss his book Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza, which challenges mainstream Christians’ uncritical embrace of the modern State of Israel. A Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian, Isaac writes from Bethlehem with close-up knowledge of conditions on the ground. Rooted in a commitment to nonviolence and just peace, Isaac urged listeners to bring a Christian theological criticism to bear upon colonialism, racism, and empire, and to realign their beliefs and actions with Christ—who can be found not among perpetrators of violence, but with victims buried under the rubble of war. Embed FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: Harvard Divinity School. SPEAKER 2: Christ in the Rubble-- Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza, March 27, 2025. HILARY RANTISI: Hello, everybody. Welcome. Great to see this roomful and such a wonderful group of people, lots of friends, new faces. Welcome, everyone. My name is Hilary Rantisi. And I'm the associate director of the Religion, Conflict, and Peace Initiative here at Harvard Divinity School. It's one of the programs of the Religion and Public Life Program. And it's my honor tonight to present our event and our speaker. Tonight's event is part of our new book series. And this is the third book that we're hosting this semester. There will be one more on April the 7, so please be on the lookout for that book event. Before I introduce our program, I want to thank my colleagues, without whom, arrangements for such program is not possible. As you can see, we have a roomful of people and lots of things happening around it. We will also have food at the end. So I would like to thank my colleagues-- Reem, Tammy, Natalie, Rachelle, Delice And today also, lots of people pitching in. Hesham, Hussein, and Zain also helping set up. And thank you to Rabi, also, for filming this. So please join me in thanking my colleagues. \[APPLAUSE\] So as an introduction, for those of you who are not familiar with the Religion, Conflict, and Peace Initiative, our work here always, always centralizes an analysis of power, structural injustice and violence. In all our programming, you will see that thread come through our programming, and today is not an exception. The primary case study we've been focusing on in our work has been on Israel-Palestine. And our aim has been to stretch the scholarly discourse around religion and the practices of peace-building, and to examine the decolonial potentialities of art, religion, and identity transformation. So our book today, Christ in the Rubble, get your copy at the back, so you have an opportunity to purchase a copy. Christ in the Rubble-- Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza centers in analysis of power, structural injustice, and violence, so very much in line with the work that we are doing. We are so honored to be welcoming Reverend Doctor Munther Isaac to be with us today. Reverend Doctor Munther Isaac is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He's also the academic dean of the Bethlehem Bible College and the director of the Christ at the Checkpoint Conferences. He's widely published as well, in addition to the book that we're featuring today. He's authored numerous books and articles, including The Other Side of the Wall-- A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope, published in 2020. And From Lands to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth-- A Christ-centered Biblical Theology of the Promised Land, published in 2018. It is my great privilege for me to welcome you to Harvard today, Dr. Munther Isaac. Please join me in welcoming him to the stage. \[APPLAUSE\] MUNTHER ISAAC: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I am honored to be here. Thank you, Hilary and the team, and the Religion, Conflict, and Peace Initiative. I'm grateful to be here. And with everything that's happening in our world, I don't take this opportunity for granted. And I know that there is so much shrinking space for our voices. And so I appreciate every opportunity. I would like to begin my talk by quoting from my good friend, Palestinian theologian Yousef AlKhourI, who comes from Gaza. His parents are still trapped in Gaza. Yousef writes, and I quote, genocide against the Palestinian people did not start in 2023, but rather, has been ongoing for more than 100 years. "Genocide is an ideology that began in the minds of Proto-Zionist Christians, Zionists, and Orientalists, who claim that Palestine was a land without people," end quote. To talk about faith, the Bible, and the genocide is indeed, emotionally only taxing. It's not only that I'm addressing existential issues for us as Palestinians, but for me, personally, it's about my faith, my identity, and my being. So I hope you understand, this is not an academic exercise or an abstract study. And this is why, when we, as Palestinians, speak, we speak with so much emotions-- anger, pain, and frustration. We're so tired and weary from the images of children in the rubble. We continue to ask for how long. We're tired and weary of advocating. We're tired from the images of bloody hospitals, of bereaved families. And we're tired of having to fight for our mere existence. I loved the West Bank, not Raza. I love the West Bank. With close to 40,000 Palestinians already displaced in the North, Israel is waging a campaign against the refugee camps. And I left wondering, who's next? Are we next in Bethlehem? The seats of ethnic cleansing are already being planted in the West Bank. And before I begin, I must clarify something. Genocide is not a term I use lightly. I was recently asked, giving a talk to a group of church leaders, who noticed that I used the word "Genocide" a lot, and they said, how do you define it? How do you understand the word "Genocide"? And I answered by saying, it doesn't matter. My opinion doesn't matter. Genocide has a definition and a criteria. It was not the Palestinians who wrote this definition, it was the Western world, with the idea that never again must be never again. In fact, for years, that Western world lectured us in the Middle East and Palestines, Arabs, on the importance of international law and human rights. So we apply the criteria. Genocide, as I said, has a definition that was set by the Genocide Convention. And you can go and read this definition when any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole, or in part, a national, ethical, ethnical, racial, or religious group, and then gives five criterias-- killing members of the group, causing seriously bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions of calculated-- you know the definition. Now, we have mounting evidence. And the witness of numerous experts that what Israel has been doing in Gaza fits this definition, meets the criteria, and accounts for genocide, based on the definition. And I want to name some examples, not all. We have the case of the South African in the International Court of Justice. We have numerous UN experts form a group committee of repertoires. We have many leading genocide and Holocaust scholars, including Israeli professors like Amos Goldberg, a Holocaust and genocide researcher at the Hebrew University. We have Raz Segal, associate professor of Holocaust and genocide study at Stockton University. We have Omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University. We have the report from Francesca Albanese, the United Nations Special Rapporteur, on the occupied Palestinian territories. Back in December of 2024, we have a report, 2023, of over 55 scholars of the Holocaust, genocide and mass violence. Then we have a joint report by the University Network for Human Rights, International Human Rights Clinic, Boston University School of Law, the International Human Rights Clinic, Cornell Law School, Center for Human Rights, University of Pretoria, and the Lowenstein Human Rights Project at Yale Law School. Then we have the detailed report of Human Rights Watch, another by Amnesty International, then a report commissioned by the UN Human Rights Council. Let us be clear. The question is not whether what's happening is a genocide or not. The question is, why is this being denied? And why are people of faith-- in particular, I call on my own family, the church, why is the church denying that there is a genocide? That is the real question and not whether there is a genocide or not. And again, I reiterate, you lectured us for years on the international law and human rights, but when it's one of your ally, by your tax money, and the support of your political leaders commits a genocide, you attack us for talking, calling it a genocide. Why is it being denied? And maybe, we need to ask, how many more need to be killed until the world recognizes that this is a genocide? We're talking about close to 50,000 people that we are able to count who were killed, including 17,000 children. And in fact, The Lancet, one of the world's leading medical journals, recently published a report that estimates that the death toll is actually close to 180,000. We have two million displaced, total destruction. Gaza, as we know it, no longer exists. The denial is so loud. It's nothing short of complicity. And tragically, today, we are reaching what many are calling the final stages of the genocide, with threats, leave or die. And it seems that the Israeli politicians are content to apply Trump's idea of ethnically cleansing two million Palestinians. The numbers from the first 48 hours since the ceasefire broke are horrifying. The images were horrifying. I've written a book about a genocide, not just to highlight what happened, but also to lament the fact, and I speak here as a pastor, that the genocide has taken place in front of the whole world to see. And mainly, Western Christian theology, shamefully and tragically played a role in enabling this genocide. The role of theology, of course, cannot be viewed in isolation, but as part and parcel of a wider matrix. This matrix, I would argue, is a matrix of three-- coloniality, racism, and theology. Coloniality, racism, and theology. You see, when we try to fathom the amount of hypocrisy and double standard manifested by the United States, the UK, and Europe, and indeed, unfortunately, many faith leaders, when it comes to the International Law and Human Rights, this can be explained, I would argue, by these three intertwining factors-- coloniality, racism, and theology. Racism and supremacy, of course, and empire theology. The three elements work together. They work hand-in-hand in the context of Palestine. When I talk about coloniality, I use a definition from a document called the Accra Confession. It's a Christian ecumenical document from the World Communion of Reformed Churches. And it defines empire or coloniality as such. The coming together of economic, cultural, political, and military power that constitutes a system of domination, led by powerful nations to protect and defend their own interests. Again, the coming together of economic, cultural, political, and military power that constitutes a system of domination led by powerful nations to protect and defend their own interests. Power, domination, interest, we need to look at Israel within these terms. It's interesting that America actually never hesitates when it talks about Israel as an ally. They support Israel because Israel is an ally. There is an invested interest here. Israel makes us richer, more powerful. What Biden said during the war was very telling. If Israel did not exist, we would have to create it to protect our interest in the Middle East. This is the power of empire, of control, of domination. And that's why it's very clear, across the political divide that support to Israel, I would argue, an extension of empire is part and parcel of American policy, even American identity. This domination and exploitation of others is based, I would argue, on racism, the belief that some people groups have less dignity and worth than others, to put it simply. You see to both that you will, and I quote, own someone else's land or territory. These are Trump's words, "We will own Gaza." Then make it into the Riviera of the Middle East by ethnically cleansing two million people. To do so, you only declare this when you clearly view yourself as superior and the other as inferior, even less human. This is what enables you or allows you to make such a claim. What was really interesting is the response in the US society and politics about this suggestion. There was a debate about its practicality. Do we want to send troops to Gaza? And of course, no one could care less about the idea that Trump is actually suggesting ethnically cleansing two million people. A war crime. No one cares. So don't tell me it's not racism, that they don't view Palestinians as equal human beings. And if you need an ideology or religion that turns coloniality and racism into actually good and righteous acts, then theology and religion come to the surface. And by the way, it's not only in this discussion that empire and theology work hand-in-hand, they do so in many other contexts. Empire theology justifies and gives legitimacy to the sins of coloniality and racism, by giving them different names. That's how the three work together, as I said, hand-in-hand. You see, to dominate, you must dehumanize. And to dehumanize, you need a discourse that turns, in our case, the Indigenous into terrorists, and turns acts of colonialism into fighting evil and tyranny, maybe even promoting democracy and freedom, maybe even promoting law and order, self-defense. You need those who whisper in the ears of Caesar, that he is sent from God, and what he is doing is not just right but will actually make us all great. Empires need a religion. They need a discourse that declares that you are entitled, chosen, destined, superior. This is the theology of empire, whether it's that of apartheid, Christian Zionism, or go and read the Israeli nation-state law. In the case of Palestine, Colonialism was described by theology as, and I quote, "Jewish return to the land," rendering the Indigenous Palestinian, including the Palestinian Christians who lived in this land for centuries, preserving its heritages and Christian presence, rendering them as aliens, even invaders. This is the power of theology. And so the ethnic cleansing of 18,000 Palestinians was dismissed as an unfortunate outcome. And those Palestinians are still denied the right to return to their homes, not just land, homes, even as visitors while a Jew born in Brooklyn can settle in Palestine, displace Palestinians. And this is called Jewish return to the land or fulfillment of prophecy. This is the power of theology. I'm always interested when we're told, as Palestinians, that we must forget the past. We should stop talking about the Nakba. But on the other side, you're telling us that the Zionists have legitimacy to our land because of something that happened 4,000 years ago. But we are the ones who should forget the past. And of course, none of what I'm saying is a denial to the historical and religious connections of the Jewish community to the land. The problem is translating this into entitlement and the right to dispossess Palestinians, displace them, and establish a system of apartheid there. But again, by the power of theology, the discourse is shifted. By the way, when we speak about Gaza, have we forgotten that the state of Israel was literally built on the ruins of more than 470 towns and villages? And that close to 75% or 80% of the people of Gaza are Nakba survivors. No one talks about this. We're actually told, again, to forget the past. When we think of the Western, and theological, and church support to Israel in particular, it was so evident even in this genocide. It manifested itself in several ways. There was full endorsement. Those who called for the genocide, there was justification. There was the unquestioned promotion of the Zionist narrative of the war. And there was also silence, and sometimes, very shy calls for peace and a ceasefire. This support was across different levels. We saw or heard from theologians, popular pastors, the Christian media, congresspeople, and politicians. And in one of the most telling moments in the last year when it comes to Western Christian support to the land, it was when, in the Congress, there was a debate about university encampments. And Congressman Allen questioned the then President of Columbia University, if she knows Genesis 12:3, and then asked her, do you want to be cursed by the God of the bible? Do you want Columbia University to be cursed by the God of the bible? Go and watch the clip. It's unreal. It's using biblical text. I mean, let alone, he's butchering the text, but this is spiritual intimidation and bullying. A Palestinian friend of mine called it spiritual terrorism. Imagine, by the way, if Congresswoman Ilhan Omar did the same, quoting the Quran to threaten and intimidate that, "Allah will curse you if you are against the Palestinian people." Imagine the response. It was so hard for us, as Palestinians, to see how the Bible was weaponized, not just to justify colonialism, but to justify and support this genocide. In the book, I have a whole chapter called A Theology of a Genocide. Believe me, that chapter could have been a book. It was hard for us on a personal level because we have loved ones in Gaza. And then we hear pastors calling for Israel to make Gaza a parking lot within a week. We've had those who saw the suffering, the pain, the destruction, the war and said, maybe this will usher the second coming of Christ, influential pastors. Palestinians were described as the Amalekites. For those who don't know the biblical story, the Amalekites in the Bible needs to be annihilated completely, utterly destroyed. We were called as the Amalekites, for the simple reason, as one theologian put it, because we did not accept Israel's sole inheritance of the land today. Imagine. So if anybody does not accept Israel's sole inheritance of the land today, that person needs to be utterly destroyed and annihilated. And this was repeated over and over. By the way, Netanyahu said this, but we believe he got it from Christian Zionist pastors. We don't know. There was a pastor who turned into a Congressman, who called for bombs to be dropped on Gaza. And I quote, like Nagasaki and Hiroshima, "to get it over quick," adding that we shouldn't be spending a dime on humanitarian aid. I can't help but question, what Jesus is he following? And to me, the idea that he cites Nagasaki and Hiroshima as good example is shocking. Remember the time when we killed 200,000 people? That worked. Let's do it again. Many used the just war theory to justify this war. And maybe in the beginning, I would understand-- the first week, the first two weeks, the first month. But 17,000 children killed later, and you're still silent, is this really the justice of God? Is this justice, the total destruction of Gaza? I wonder if you've seen the images from last week, when Israel boasted about destroying the only cancer hospital in Gaza, demolishing it from the bottom, not with a rocket, demolishing it. That's a response to October. That's justice? To us, the just war theory, speak to the theologians here, is yet one tool in the arsenal of the empire. Palestinian Christians wrote a response in the beginning of the war or a call for repentance to the Western Christian community. In it, we said, and I quote, "We are aware of the Western Christian legacy of just war theory that was used to justify dropping atomic bombs over innocent civilians in Japan during World War II, the destruction of Iraq, and the decimation of its Christian population during the latest American War on Iraq, as well as the unwavering and uncritical support for Israel against the Palestinians in the name of moral supremacy and self-defense." The arguments of anti-Semitism were also thrown against us as Palestinians. Anti-Semitism is now weaponized against Palestinians. It's very shameful. The Christ in the Rubble symbol that we created in our church was criticized and called as anti-Semitic because we dared to wrap Jesus in a keffiyeh. You know what's interesting? Some of you maybe have been to our church in Bethlehem. It was built by the Germans. And in that very same church, where Jesus in the rubble still lays, we have beautiful stained glass windows, I kid you not, with a blond Jesus with colored eyes. No one protests. But if we, as Palestinians, dare to see Jesus sympathizing with our suffering, we are called anti-Semitic. It was an article that tried to fight anti-Semitism. And sadly, it did so while promoting vile hatred towards the Palestinians. And let me tell you something, and I hope you understand this, for us, as Middle Eastern and Middle Eastern Christians, when anti-Semitism is brought against us, they mean the audacity to call us out for anti-Semitism, when it was you who killed and butchered six million Jews in Germany. And you have the audacity to lecture us on Christian Zionism, really? And then by merely resisting the idea of being displaced from the land of our mothers and fathers, you call us anti-Semitic? Really? This is a shameful weaponization of anti-Semitism, because anti-Semitism is real. We continue to be told that this genocide is a response to October 7. And we have to ask, really? Again, how is the destruction of hospitals? A response to October 7. And maybe it's our fault that we allowed the Western world to place themselves on the top of the moral hierarchy and tell us what's right and what's just. Eight months into the war, the biggest, largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, made a resolution about the war. So that's a statement, this was a resolution, which meant it was debated and deliberated. And when I read it, I kid you not, I had to read it more than once or twice. I read it three times, just to check if I'm wrong, because it did not mention a single Palestinian who was killed in the war. They don't see us. It's as if we don't exist. They couldn't even make themselves pretend that they care. Maybe they could have said, we lament, or we're sad that Palestinians were killed, but we blame Hamas. They couldn't even pretend that they care. Don't tell me it's not racism. But there was another kind of support and justification to this war, by the so-called mainline denomination, progressive, even liberal Christians, who, for most of the time, adopted the Zionist narrative by calling it a war of self-defense or by simply praying for peace. I devote a lot of time in the book to talk about church statements, and there were many church statements. And one of the common elements about this statement, believe me, these statements came from the most progressive and liberal land churches. I analyzed one of them, Church of Sweden, a Lutheran, so that you don't think I'm only criticizing other. I also criticize Lutherans. The actions of Hamas are condemned. This is in the statement. They are described as indiscriminate, brutal, and ruthless. The statement highlights the desecration of bodies and the targeting of civilians. It also adopts the Zionist narrative that Hamas is using civilians as human shields. It concludes that all these actions are reprehensible and in violation of international law. They must be condemned. Then the statement moves to the actions of Israel. Israel is not condemned. War crimes are not called out. The actions of Israel are not described as indiscriminate, brutal, and ruthless. There is nothing about the desecration of thousands of children's bodies by bombs. These genocidal acts are, and I quote, "a human tragedy" that deserves sympathy, but they, somehow, remain legitimate acts of self-defense by Israel. This was in November of 2023. There was another statement by another Lutheran Church in Europe, Germany, in November 2024. And in that statement, and I kid you not, they did not call for a ceasefire. They just said, we call for the creation of structures that would allow humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. We read it and wonder, are they calling for cranes to come from top end structures, so that we allow? They couldn't even call out Israel for denying aid from entering Gaza. And again, these are the progressive churches. Is this a better position than the conservative, in the same way, by the way, when we have these discussions about one administration versus the other, is there any difference, honestly? Many churches called for a ceasefire. The cause, I believe, in many cases, were genuine, yet, they were toothless, because they were devoid of the language of war crimes, genocide, apartheid, and holding those who commit war crimes accountable. This is the art of church, diplomacy. I have a problem with this concept of peacemaking, in many faith circles that believes peacemaking is about neutrality or positioning yourself in the middle. Today, we, as Palestinians, are wondering, can you really claim to be in solidarity with us if you are not willing to call things for what they are? That's why I began with the definition of genocide. It should not be controversial when the Pope says, there is a genocide. In fact, maybe we should have anticipated this. As I was part of many activists, who pushed for the global church to study and respond to the reports of apartheid, the numerous reports by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, B'Tselem, and many, many others, only to be called out for being aggressive and for burning bridges. We were told it's not helpful to call Israel an apartheid, even by those who actually told us, yes, it is true, but it's not helpful. So can you really claim to be in solidarity with the Palestinians if you're not willing to call things by name? Including, by the way, this whole concept of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Maybe this is part of the problem, this kind of discourse of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, which purposefully ignores and dismisses the reality of settler colonialism and apartheid. Imagine, in the '80s, talking about the black and white conflict in South Africa. In fact, when the South Africans visit us, you know what they tell us. What you have is far worse than the apartheid we had. Everyone who visits us tells us this. And again, this is the ones who claim to care for the Palestinian cause, yet, continue to talk about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. God forget talk about weapon embargo to Israel. At the same time, can we continue to ignore Zionism and Christian Zionism for what they truly are-- ideologies that are based on racism and exclusivity? When we look at and evaluate Zionism, by the facts on the ground, by what Zionism has committed, it is clearly a movement that engage in settler colonialism by establishing a state for the Jewish people on someone else's land. That's a definition of Zionism, establishing a home for the Jewish people in Palestine. While Palestine was not empty, Zionism necessitates, by definition, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Go and read what the early Zionist leaders said, they called it the transfer. They recognized it. I'm tired of the world defining Zionism in completely unreal ways that are devoid from reality. Zionism has established, as proven by many, a system of apartheid, enforced by an aggressive military occupation. In Gaza, the Zionist-Israeli government carried out a genocide. Justifying such acts is at the core of Zionism as a political ideology. So to my Christian friend, I ask, can we really put the word "Christian" before all of this? Are colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and genocide compatible with the Christian ethics and the teachings of Jesus? In fact, many Jewish people today protest that these tactics are not in line with their Jewish ethos and values, and we are grateful for their courage. In fact, many times, I wish church leaders spoke with the same courage of Jewish leaders, whether here or in other places. So we need to call out Zionism for what it truly is, and make it an interfaith priority to combat Zionist ideology with a holistic vision of justice and equality. I'd like to touch on the concept of Christ in the Rubble, which is the title of the book. I'm sure, many of you have seen the image seen around the world, that we created in our church, Christmas Lutheran Church, of baby Jesus wrapped in a keffiyeh under the rubble. What many don't know is that the inception of that concept of Christ in the Rubble was actually pastoral in nature. The whole idea began when the Church of Saint Porphyrius was attacked in November of 2023, an attack that killed 18 people, including 9 precious children. What made it difficult for me then is the fact that, at the day of the attack, we just had an ecumenical service in Bethlehem in the Church of the Nativity. And we prayed, precisely, for two things-- a ceasefire and protection for our friends and siblings in the church. I go back home, we hear of the attack. And I couldn't help but wonder, does God actually care? Does he listen? What made things even more difficult for me as a pastor is the fact that a church member lost her sister in that attack. So two days later, I have to go and preach. What do I say? How do I answer the grief, the pain, the fear in many? And the question-- where was god? Why does he allow this? Why didn't he listen? I could not provide any philosophical or theological answers, but I looked at the cross and saw Jesus, the victim of the very same violence of empire. He, too, on the cross, cried, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Jesus suffers with us, that's what I said. His cry on the cross is similar to our cry. God is under the rubble in Gaza. He's in the hospitals. He's with those who suffer. God is under the rubble. This was my attempt as a pastor, to bring comfort and healing to people who were broken. I tried to say that God is near. He's close to those who suffer. And so when Christmas came, we thought of the idea and the church. I shared it with our church members. We came as families, children. And we created this image that is now seen around the world. I preached that Sunday that this is precisely the meaning of Christmas, the solidarity of God with the oppressed. Jesus was born among the occupied. In the gospel story, which we can read as a very Palestinian story, Jesus survived a massacre. The Holy Family became refugees out of all places in Egypt. So the message of the gospel story, I said, is the solidarity of God with the marginalized and the oppressed. And at the same time, in a time when the whole world and we were tired because the whole world was rationalizing and justifying the killing of our children, I insisted that we see the image of Jesus in every child pulled from under the rubble. The world might say whatever they want about our children. We see Jesus in every one of them. They are precious. This was the idea, this was the concept of Christ in the Rubble. After the service, I shared a story on my social media, and to say it went viral is an understatement. It gave me a platform. And that was, I must admit, very much overwhelming. But I had to speak, and I used that platform to send a message to the world. And so I used the platform to talk about, this is what Christmas looks like in Bethlehem, in Palestine-- families displaced, homes destroyed, and children pulled from under the rubble. And I continued to speak and use that platform, until in Christmas 2023, I gave a sermon again, heard all over the world, also called Christ in the Rubble, in which, I called out people of faith precisely my own tribe, the Christian family, for their complicity in this war. I called them to act and speak with courage. I was trying to humanize the Palestinians in a day when everyone seems to be content with seeing a genocide normalized. So Christ in the Rubble became our message to the world. It became our message to the church. To me, it's about the credibility of our Christian witness. And by the way, sometimes people ask me, why don't you call out other faith leaders? Why don't you call out Arabs and Muslims? And I say, I like to own up for my own people. That's why I continued saying that the silence of the Christian world was too loud. It communicated apathy. It did not reflect the heart of God towards the broken and the suffering. This is the sin of apathy, in that we live in a world in which a genocide was normalized. And we're watching it, until today, life on Earth. Sisters and brothers, there is so much at stake. And I must ask, what world do we want to leave for our children if people commit war crimes, boast about it, and are not held accountable? This is much more than Palestine, I hope you realize this. This is no longer about Palestine. This is about our collective humanity. Because never again has become yet again. When people ask me, where was God in the midst of a genocide? I always say, this is the wrong question, because this is not an earthquake or a hurricane. This is evil committed by fellow human beings on fellow human beings. The question should not be, "Where was God?" but where were the people of goodwill? And to me, I will continue to ask, where was the church? I think all of US needs to look back and ask, what did we do so that never again truly becomes never again? This is why I say, this is way beyond Palestine. It's about our collective history. We live in a moment in which, probably now, all these human rights convention and international law could be devoid, meaningless. We're heading towards the rule of might is right. Today, it's Palestine. God knows who's next. So in the midst of this dark reality, can we hope? Should we even preach hope in the midst of a genocide? What do we tell the people in Gaza? How can we talk about hope when we have lost more than 17,000 children in Gaza? At least, 17,000. How can we talk about hope when millions have lost their homes? How can we talk about hope when settler attacks are on the rise? Just a few days ago, the codirector of the documentary, No Other Land, a joint Palestinian-Israeli Oscar-winning documentary, just when we thought there is a glimpse of hope. The Palestinian codirector was attacked in his house by Israeli settler mobs. And in the ambulance, he was arrested from the ambulance. Can we hope? How can we talk about hope when the person who led the Gaza genocide and one of the architects of an apartheid reality is received and welcomed in Congress as a hero? How can we hope when Arab leaders watch and do nothing to stop the genocide? How can we hope when ideologies of supremacy and exclusion dominate our world? How can we hope when many churches side with the empire, repeat its rhetoric, and play its tune, all while claiming that they are on the side of peace? How can we hope when the Bible continues to be weaponized against the Palestinian people? How can we hope when the Caesars of today boast about, and I repeat, owning someone else's land, displacing millions? They look at the tragedy and massacre of millions, the tragedy of millions, and see in it an opportunity to grow in wealth and power. Even sharing a video of the plan, I wonder how many of you saw the video, featuring a Nebuchadnezzar-type golden statue of himself. And the church kept silent, even worse, whispering in his ear, "You are sent by God to make us great." How can we hope in the midst of a culture of feed, and intimidation, and bullying, saying, one after the other, cave down? So can we hope? Should we hope? I think, to answer that question, we need to consider the alternative. Because when we stop hoping, we declare that we give in to tyranny and oppression, allowing the oppressors of the empire to shape our reality, even our future. I can't accept this. When we stop hoping, we accept that injustice is the norm. Hope, in this sense, is a struggle. It is painful. It is illogical. It even feels wrong, believe me. But we cannot surrender to the alternative. In Palestine, we talk more about Sumud. Sumud is the Arabic word for steadfastness. It's about resilience. It's about refusing to forget the past. It's about rootedness. In the land, this rootedness that can be shaken but will never be uprooted. I see this Sumud everywhere I go, because Palestinians kept their memory, kept their identity. Yes, the path forward seems to be marked with more suffering and pain. But until then, we will continue to pray, we will continue to believe, and we will continue fighting just to keep the faith. That's why I kept repeating throughout this war. They can take everything from us, but they cannot take faith from within us. They cannot get into inside of us. They cannot take faith from us. Faith in God is the one thing that they cannot take from us. In this sense, Sumud becomes our commitment, our defiance, our resolve, becomes our commitment to continue to work for justice, to advocate for life with dignity, and to choose to hope that we will recover from this atrocity. Hope becomes a choice, action, active. Yes, the loss is enormous. The destruction is massive. The pain is profound, and the wounds are deep. To the extent that recovery seems an illusion, it feels like being in the bottom of a deep and dark pit, it feels like the tomb of Jesus on Saturday-- death, darkness, and silence. But we must continue to choose to hope, to survive, to exist, and to insist that God is good. So we will recover, rooted in resilience. And we will demand justice for our people. We will recover. Thank you. \[APPLAUSE\] SPEAKER 2: Sponsor, the Religion, Conflict, and Peace Initiative at Religion and Public Life. SPEAKER 1: Copyright 2025, the president and fellows of Harvard College. See also:- [ Religion, Conflict, and Peace ](/news/religion-conflict-and-peace) - [ RPL Past Events ](/news/rpl-past-events)