This discussion followed the screening of Oscar-winning filmmakers Chai Vasarhelyi and Jimmy Chin's extraordinary film "Wild Life". The film is a story of love, wildness, and restoration in Chile and Argentina, recording the life of Kris Tompkins through an epic decades-spanning love story as wild as the landscapes she dedicated her life to protecting. Special guests in this conversation include Kris Tompkins and Chai Vasarhelyi, with guest curator Geralyn Dreyfous and HDS writer-in-residence Terry Tempest Williams. This event took place November 13, 2023.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKER 1: Harvard Divinity School.
SPEAKER 2: Wild Life film discussion. November 13, 2023.
DIANE L. MOORE: Thank you. Thank you for your patience. And thank you especially for joining us for this very special evening. I'm Diane Moore. I'm the Associate Dean of Religion and Public Life here, and one of the--
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My great pleasure. And I'm one of the three co-instructors for the course that is sponsoring this event, a Wild Promise. So on behalf of Terry Tempest Williams and Geralyn Dreyfous and I, we want to welcome you to this event.
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We are incredibly honored to have Kris and Chai with us for this film screening of this extraordinary film. For some of us, I've seen it now three times. And I can't wait to see it a fourth time. Because every time, I see something new in it. It has that kind of depth, and that kind of beauty.
Before I launch into just some very brief remarks, because we are running late-- started a little late-- I do want to encourage you, and in fact, really urge you to stay to watch the credits at the end of a film. Because it is an extraordinary feat to be able to create something of this magnitude. And those credits are all the people who make those kinds of events possible.
And it is too much of our own practice when we watch films, I think, as soon as the credits come, we're done, we get up. But I want to encourage you to stay, to see the number of people and the diversity of people who are connected to this film.
And in a similar way, I must begin my remarks by saying that events like this also take an extraordinary number of people to make possible. So I want to just give pause, if you will, to really listen to my thanks for the people who have made this evening possible. And I will not possibly be able to mention all of their names, but I have a few I want to honor and recognize.
I first want to just give thanks to Susan and Jim Swartz who--
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Without them, this school might not be here. So we are incredibly grateful for your generosity. Not just your generosity, but your leadership and your vision for a just world at peace that inspires us all. So thank you so much.
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I want to thank our Interim Dean, David Holland, who's at the back of the room, who has to go a little early tonight, regrettably, who is doing a Herculean job of holding the fort down during these very tumultuous times. This is the six months of hell for an interim antibody. And he has led us with grace, and with humor, and with vision. So please give round of applause to David.
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And I want to thank some specific people who made pizza happen, and made the room happen, and made the chairs happen. Sue Reuther is an amazing colleague who helps make facilities run almost seamlessly. Bob Deveau and Robbie is here with our last minute request for this video. And I want to-- special thanks to you.
To my amazing colleagues in Religion and Public Life, who, again, helped book the room, get the pizza, make sure these things happen behind the scenes. Natalie Campbell, Rochelle Sway, Tammy Liao, and Reem Atassi. So please can we give them a round of applause.
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So there are many things that I can say about this film. I won't say many. I want to say, you will see extraordinary beauty, you will see extraordinary courage, you will see extraordinary heartache and heartbreak. And you will see extraordinary grit.
What I want to say is that this film is, itself, a story about how to transform despair into action. And despair on multiple levels. And you will see what I mean by that, those multiple levels. But I think all of us who are paying any attention, not only to the challenges, the ecological and Earth crisis that we're in the middle of facing, and that seems to get worse every day, we can't help if we are open and aware of that and other challenges that we are facing in the world today, to feel grief.
So the question really isn't, should we feel grief? But the question is, how do we transform our grief? What do we do with our grief, and how do we transform it into generative action? And this film gives us one story of that kind of transformation.
And we are about ready to enjoy and learn from, and I hope, be inspired by that story. So I'm going to turn this over now to my dear friend and colleague, Terry Tempest Williams, who has been a beacon of light in the face of so many different challenges we face in the world, and an artist in her own right, a beautiful writer, a beautiful poet, and someone who has given me, personally, fresh language about how to transform grief into action that is generative and imaginative. So, Terry, thank you for your partnership and your friendship, and for making this happen.
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TERRY TEMPEST WILLIAMS: Good evening. This is so exciting, to see all of you here. And thank you for coming to the Divinity School on this beautiful November night, to really think about wildness, and what that means in the fullest sense.
Diane, I have to say that, as a community at the Divinity School, we are so grateful for your vision and ethical response that Religion and Public Life has given to all of us during these hard times, and the kind of empathy and understanding that you have exemplified. And astonishing us to be wary of single narratives. So it's an honor to be part of this community.
And thank you for co-sponsoring this event with the Constellation Project. And to the team that Diane mentioned, we could not do this without you. So, thank you.
I also want to acknowledge our Dean, who has led with such spiritual depth and understanding in a very difficult time where there are many, many different points of view. And I think we're all learning here what that means to hold this, that, and all at once.
And also, Janet Gyatso, our associate Dean of faculty and students. Without you, I can't imagine being here. So it's a beautiful place to be. And as Diane has mentioned, we are all so grateful to the Swartz. To Susan, to Jim, thank you for your constant generosity, for your presence, for your commitment to depth and beauty, and knowing what we need, and why. And you continue to teach us about faith and action.
I'm just going to take about five minutes. But I want to really honor the two women that we have. And I also want to give you a context of what we're doing, and why.
Diane, Geralyn Dreyfous, who is a wonderful producer of films, and a dear friend, and Lindsey Sennwald, a former Divinity School graduate. We've been the team teaching a Wild Promise, which honors the 50th anniversary of the Endangered Species Act that was established to an unthinkable, almost unanimous decision. There was one negative vote. It's hard to imagine that now.
So we're celebrating endangered species. And each of our students is picking one species that's threatened, and creating an imaginative project around that. Why here, you might ask? Why talk about the Earth, and endangered species, and extinction, and climate at a Divinity School? Why not the Kennedy School, or the Harvard Center for the Environment, or even the Business School?
But here we are, looking at the Earth crisis and climate justice, and issues of race and peace, understanding that this is all one issue. And yes, it's a political issue. Yes, it's an ecological issue. But we, here, at the Divinity School, also understand that this is a spiritual issue. And we're so grateful that you are here to reside with us on this night.
I just want to acknowledge the students in the class. Would you please stand?
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This is why we're really here. Because these are the future leaders. And I have been so moved by their depth, by their hearts. We have everyone from the Divinity School here, to the School of Business, to the School of Design, public health, education. I could go on and on.
It's a diverse group, and a spirited group, and a brilliant group. And even undergraduates from the college. So we're so glad that you were able to just witness their presence.
We can change the ending of this story of extinction if we recognize that there is something deeper than hope. What is that? In my mind, it's passionate engagement. Putting love into action. And that's what we're celebrating tonight with this very special film, Wild Life, made by the Academy Award winning directors, Chai Vasarhelyi, and her husband, Jimmy Chin. I can tell you, personally, they were neighbors of ours. And that in itself was a gift. And they have two beautiful children.
It's a love story between Kris Mcdivitt Tompkins and Doug Tompkins, and how they put their love into action on behalf of this beautiful, broken world. Their vision of conservation in the 20th and 21st century is inclusive. By garnering governments and local people, Indigenous people, scientists, farmers, visionaries, national and international in scope, with an end result of restoration of communities, both human and wild.
Chai and Kris are with us tonight. And I can tell you, I do not know two stronger women. Two women who are fierce, who are smart, strategic, and fearless. Women that I honor and bow to. And such an honor to have you both here.
Just as this was a personal project for Jimmy and Chai to pay homage to the ethos held in the legacy of Melinda and Yvon Chouinard, and Kris and Doug Tompkins, through their companies, their businesses of Patagonia Inc and the North Face, iconic businesses in the outdoor industry.
It's important to realize, these are people who took their business not so seriously, their recreation very seriously, and the love for the wild was everything. They took their profits, and placed them in the service and protection of wild nature. It's been my dream to have Kris Tompkins here with us, to share with us her fire and wisdom.
Call it an engaged spirituality, her devotion to wildness. And I view her as part of our extended family. We met in the early '80s when she was the first CEO of Patagonia. She collaborated with the Chouinard's in building this business into the world renowned anti-corporation, donating 10% of their profits to environmental and cultural organizations, like Earth First and The Women of Béziers. As Yvon has made it clear, Earth, quote, "is our only shareholder."
Kris, as you will learn tonight, in partnership with her husband, Doug Tompkins, co-created Tompkins Conservation. I will just brief these facts. What does their impassioned engagement look like in Chile and Argentina? 15 national parks created or expanded, two marine national parks designated, 14 million acres protected on land, and 30 million acres protected on by the sea.
Kris is now the president of Tompkins Conservation, focusing on rewilding projects and the restoration and reintroduction of 14 wildlife species, extending to the northeast here to New England, wild New England, initiating mountain lions back into the woods. And she's Chair of the National Geographic society Last Wild Place campaign, first conservation to be awarded-- conservationist awarded Carnegie Medal of Philanthropy. And in 2018, was named United Nations Global Patron for Protected Areas. She would hate this, but-- you deserve it.
Here's the thing. Whether she's having a meeting personally with the Pope, Pope Francis in Rome, or sharing a meal with George Washington Hayduke, alias, Doug Peacock, in grizzly country. Kris is a global figure in the lineage of Jane Goodall and Wangari Maathai.
And lastly, the most impressive thing about Kris is her spirit, how she not only thinks big, but delivers creativity and beauty on her promises. Imagining that a healing grace on behalf of a burning world on a global scale is not only possible, but necessary, that we can create out of joyful collaboration, with courage, intellectual, and economic rigor and love. Protecting wild lands means protecting wild lives. Her calling is an embodied activism, heart-based, Earth-based, understanding with humility that we as human beings are only one species among many.
Welcome. And Chai, a woman who also thinks big and delivers powerfully in the world of documentary films, and now feature films. Focusing, with their husband, and as I said, they have two beautiful children, the epic adventure extraordinary, Jimmy Chin.
Films that embody the edge of what the human body, spirit, and mind are capable of. As illustrated in the epic 2019 film, Free Solo, that won the National Academy-- or the Academy Award, following the climber Alex Honnold, as you remember, in his free climb on El Capitan in Yosemite. Or the documentary, Meru, about chronicling the first ascent of the shark's fin, and rode to Meru peak in the Indian Himalayas.
It won the Sundance Audience Award for Best Documentary in 2015. Or The Rescue that maybe you saw, produced by National Geographic on the Thailand cave rescue in 2018, that saved a young soccer team from drowning in an underwater cave. These are not small topics.
This film won the 2021 Toronto International Film Festival, the People's Choice Award. And most recently, Chai and Jimmy directed the feature film, Nyad, which is receiving rave reviews. I just watched it two nights ago.
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With the long distance swimmer, Diana Nyad, who crossed the Atlantic from Cuba to Florida, starring Annette Bening and Jodie Foster, both giving beautiful performances.
Once again, they are showing us what it means to be human, what we are capable of if we put our whole selves into our dreams with great heart and teamwork.
Chai is a graduate of Princeton University. Her perceptions are razor sharp, with an intensity equal to the subjects of her film. She makes us believe that we can do better, and gives us muscular stories that transform fear into triumph. We are so honored to have you both. Please welcome Chai, as she introduces this incredible film.
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CHAI VASARHELYI: I really enjoy challenges. But to follow that is kind of ridiculous.
[LAUGHS]
Terry, Geralyn, Diane, thank you so much for having us. It's really meaningful. And it's also-- given these really complicated times we're in, it's especially powerful. I mean, for me, as a filmmaker, I keep on banging my head on the wall, being, like, I do something that's trivial. It seems trivial, especially when there are, like, mortal lives. The stakes are mortal right now.
Be it from climate change to what's happening in the Middle East. It's just-- and it's complicated. And it seems really hard to see your way through. But being here tonight is really meaningful. So, thank you.
So I make films with my husband, Jimmy Chin. He is a professional climber and alpinist, as they like to say, where he specializes in Himalayan, high altitude, snowy, cold, miserable situations.
And I think-- I made a bunch of political films before Jimmy and I met. But then when I met, and we decided to have a family and the whole thing, my interests pivoted to this examination of individuals who really defy expectations, defy limits. And they were kind of intrinsically human. Because human is to be audacious. It is to have audacious dreams, and also put in the grit and the work to make it happen.
But after making these films with Jimmy, like Meru, Free Solo, The Rescue, we were really interested-- I was really interested in that, and him too, in what that experience looks like for a woman. But when he brought me this idea of the film about Kris and Doug, and Yvonne, and Melinda, I was like, it's a lose-lose situation.
You want us to make a film about your mentors. Really? I mean, it's tricky. They're amazing, but they can't-- we're established filmmakers. We have to look at it like journalists. And it just, it's tricky.
But as I began to learn more about Kris. Because I'd never met Doug Tompkins. Jimmy had, and spent a lot of time with him. And this was the first film I had ever made about someone who had passed. But as I got to know Kris, I was like, they are taking risks, we can take this risk, like Alex, like Jimmy Conrad in Meru, like the divers in The Rescue, or probably more importantly, because Kris is now a steward for humanity, with her land conservation, her environmental work. It was critical. And this was a story that could be about a woman who finds her voice, even if it's later in life, even when it's, I don't know, when you've really experienced the worst personally.
And it's also a celebration of love. And may we all feel-- I always think about it being like, if only we're all lucky enough to experience that sort of love. So, anyway. Enjoy the film. We're here afterwards to talk about it. And thank you for having us. Because it's just a really meaningful moment. So, thank you.
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KRIS TOMPKINS: Well, Terry, first of all, thank you for having Chai and me here. I would never have gotten into Harvard.
[LAUGHTER]
And our family, a lot of them went to Stanford. And I would never have gotten in there either.
[CHUCKLES]
All of our archives are now going into Stanford University. So it's a great family joke that if you just sit out for two generations, all sorts of things come around. Anyway. I hope you enjoy the film. I think it's really important for me to say at the top, that it would never have occurred to us to do a film when Doug was alive, nor after he was gone. And then Jimmy started coming down and filming most of what you've seen.
And I always wondered, why are you doing that? You're doing all these other films, you guys are busy. And then slowly it evolved that, especially when the parks were going to be donated. And he and Chai, with tremendous gratitude, I can tell you, there would be no film about us at all, were it not for these two, because they would, and are the only people we would ever want to work with.
My hope for the film was just, I didn't want it to be too sweet. Because Doug and I were never all that sweet. It goes to Chai, and to Jimmy, of course. He's not here tonight, but-- I don't know if you want to say anything.
CHAI VASARHELYI: Thank you, Kris. And thank you Terry and Geralyn. I just want to credit Jennifer Ridgeway. So, Rick Ridgeway, who's in the film, and who's one of Jimmy's original mentors and a very dear friend, his wife was this force of nature. And together, Jennifer-- and she passed from pancreatic cancer in the middle of our filming. And she was too weak to be interviewed, which was a really, really tricky thing. It was very sad, though. Everything was sad about it.
But together, they convinced us to make the film, despite the great pressure that both Jimmy and I felt to get it right. And I don't know, every time I watch it, I just think of Jennifer. And I'm so grateful. Yeah.
KRIS TOMPKINS: So I think this really should be a conversation. And if anybody has any questions, or really anything to ask or to say, I'm delighted. We're very transparent people. And any subject is welcome. If anybody wants to start off?
AUDIENCE: Inspiring film. Thank you. My question is about the loss-- and I'm sorry that you-- about your loss. The way you came back from it and where you talk about the choice you had, you can go one way or the other. And you decided to go one way. And it almost feels like you discovered yourself and all you had to give. And it feels like you came even more alive in your own life and in how you contributed to the world.
I wonder what you'd like to share about how to learn from loss and be more of yourself.
KRIS TOMPKINS: Well, I could start by saying that if you talk to anyone in our family, they would say I have never been any different. The word that they use is relentless, even as a youngster. So I think grief is like learning a new language. And we grieve about what's taking place in the Middle East. Now we grieve what's taking place in so many places in the world.
So no one has-- gets out of this life without some form of grief. And when Doug died, I think it was shocking because I thought we would always die flying, actually. No, because we were flying in these territories, high winds, always lousy. So they were out doing something that they'd done a thousand times in conditions so tame compared to what they might have been.
So it was shocking. But also, we were starting to think, oh, what shall we be when we're incredibly old? And I think the grief was wrapped around more imagining a life without him in-- is it a life I wanted? Was I interested in it? That was the form that it took for me.
But I think we've all been around moments of tremendous loss in many different forms, as I said. And I think everybody steps up to it in their own way, depending on their-- do they believe in all the gods? Do they believe in one god? Do they-- do they hear-- John Muir, his cathedral was nature. And that has a big part of how you-- I don't think you ever get rid of it. I think you start wearing it around like a coat. It goes with you. And that's incredibly-- makes you so strong.
It's like samurai steel. You fire it up to the highest temperatures that you can. And out of that came those swords that were very hard to split. And I think that when you look, you seek out a life that has inherent problems, challenges to it. You do have to be ready for the outcome. If you look at Jimmy's other films, and maybe there are a lot of people in here, whether you work with Doctors Without Borders or you're an alpine climber or whatever it is, you're willing to risk things to have a life that is ill-defined usually. But you know that out there is your north, whatever it is.
And then I think you accept things. Long answer. Sorry.
CHAI VASARHELYI: I've started to think of it like that word-- and I can't remember the word, and someone here probably remembers. Is that Japanese pottery where when you break it and you use the gold, and it becomes even more stronger and more powerful and probably more beautiful. Yeah.
AUDIENCE: First of all, thank you so, so much for your work. It's a gift to all of us in the whole world. So really, really grateful. Thank you so much for that. And I just wanted to ask a little bit more about-- it was mentioned, but the restoration of all the wildlife. How did you do that? How did you get all these scientists? And did that start to happen while Doug was still alive, or is that more recently? But just tell us more about that. That's just like--
KRIS TOMPKINS: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Such an amazing part of it.
KRIS TOMPKINS: Our first park was Pumalin Park. This is the temperate rainforest. Million acres. And impenetrable. No logging. As far as we know, nobody was missing. So when we first got started, we didn't understand what we needed to be looking at, looking for. Asking, who's missing? Where?
And in Patagonia National Park, where a lot-- that's where the climbing was shot, that territory, there were not species that had been completely extirpated. But there were many whose numbers were really low and fragile. So that's when we got started. But we didn't know what to call it. This is back in 2003 or so.
But when we bought our first 150,000 acres in Utah and the wetlands, those vast subtropical flatlands, that's where we really began to understand that almost everybody was missing. Starting with the top predators, which, of course, as you saw was the jaguar. But the ocelots, giant anteaters, giant river otters. Peccaries, tapirs. So we just decided, we have to do this.
And so we started going to South Africa. South Africans are really good at understanding how to move populations around. I'm sure you've heard stories over time of the things that have really started to emanate out from these big numbers that were of wildlife species who were fragile in other countries. And so we started learning from the South Africans. And they were coming to us. And it was different, because they weren't trying to start at zero, necessarily. They had the individuals.
But it's amazing what happens when you start something and you publicly say, we know we have to do it, but we have no idea how. And it's like a magnet. Scientists, biologists. Special behaviorists. Everybody comes out of the woodwork and is saying, if you're serious about this, we're in. And these are tough places to live in. It's either way too hot or it's way too cold.
And we just thought-- our first species starting from zero, we decided it should be the giant anteater. Because anteaters have mouths that are about this big. And our attorneys in the US and Argentina and Chile said, please don't start with something that can kill someone or take a significant chunk out of someone. So we thought, oh, OK. Giant anteaters.
Little did we know, of course they have six inch claws and they could take you out anyway. But that's how we got started. And we couldn't get any individuals. And that was true with every species we've worked with. Because they were gone, first of all. So we needed to get Jaguars from Paraguay or Brazil or private collections or out of zoos. Same with every one of them.
Now, 15 years later, not only are there 400 and some giant anteaters free and reproducing and have been for 12 years now. But now we are this vacuum for baby anteaters who are orphans. And I mean, it's a long story. But each species-- I know, you would.
CHAI VASARHELYI: I would do it.
KRIS TOMPKINS: And people come and they-- I don't know about now. But we were taking in volunteers. And they would just come to the-- and they were working full time with infant giant anteaters, because they grow on their mother's back. The mother has been shot or run over and so on.
So they have to be on you all the time. And they stuff their heads down the front or down the back. And if you put them on the ground, they start screaming. So each species, long quarantine times. And if you go to Iberá today and go out to the jaguar breeding center, you will find people who have-- that's what they do. Every day. They are working on these different species. Some are collared. Once you're released and you're born in the wild, no collar.
I think we say right now, we have 18 jaguars running free. But we know that the number is higher since we're not tracking the cubs. And in fact, we're starting a very large program in Northern Argentina to connect up the Southern Cone with the rest of the South American continent. So we are moving out in terms of rewilding.
Yeah, we can talk about that for a long time, but people will nod off.
[CHUCKLES]
Yes?
AUDIENCE: Could you talk a little bit about rewilding in the plant kingdom, what you've done there?
KRIS TOMPKINS: Happy to. We haven't-- in Chile, we had to start our own nursery. Hand harvesting 14 different species of trees that are specific to the region. Big region. And we had up to 25 people running the nursery for about 20 years or so.
And then when we donated that park, the nursery went to a new group who keeps it going. And most of the places, we haven't had to do much restoration. And in the Patagonian Grasslands, you can't-- after 100 years of intensive sheep and some cattle, you can't throw seeds out over half a million acres of territory. So you take the livestock off over time.
And the ones who have enough water will eventually find themselves again. But many areas don't. It's just territories becoming more arid in the Southern Cone. And so you will see places where, I don't know, is it 200 years at 1,000 years? Maybe something grinds out of the ground. But you don't try to reseed the Patagonia Grasslands. Yeah. Yeah.
AUDIENCE: So here in Massachusetts, we have over 100 private land conservation organizations. And I'd be curious to know if the Tompkins Conservation organization has spurred the creation of other private conservation efforts in Latin America?
KRIS TOMPKINS: I would say in Chile, absolutely. I'm not so sure about Argentina. Some of that comes from large landowners who were sitting on it. And then they watch us go through the difficult years and the early years in Chile. But now they're not going to donate it to the national government. They wouldn't for all sorts of personal reasons.
But there are a lot of big landowners in Chile who've decided to keep their lands and their families, but start to restore them and protect them.
[APPLAUSE]
AUDIENCE: Well, first of all, thank you so much, Kris, for your incredibly important work that you're doing. And thank you, Chai, for such a beautiful film. I just wanted to ask, how do you think we can convince more people, especially those with power and influence, to be more like you and Doug? I think you talked briefly in the film about how challenging this is, especially with the culture we live in and how consumerism minded we are, how much we value profit at the expense often of other values. And I guess I'm just wondering if you have any more thoughts about how it might be possible to push this culture and work with people to get them to change their minds. And is there hope?
KRIS TOMPKINS: Uh-oh.
CHAI VASARHELYI: Yeah.
KRIS TOMPKINS: OK. I'm a child of the '60s and '70s. I'm 73 years old. So we grew up at a great moment. We couldn't get loud enough about Vietnam and peace. We couldn't get loud enough about feminism. Couldn't get loud enough about atomic energy, things like that. And then I think things got quiet for a couple-- at least a generation. Not everyone, and I don't-- not trying to start a fistfight here.
But I will say, whether it's Greta and other young people I would think about your age, that is interesting. That is exceptional. Because I promise you, the people in my generation, the will to change our way of life is insufficient, even facing what we all know. So I count a lot on you guys. And you have to find the strength to stop-- not you, but in general around the world, we are abdicating our future. Definitely your future.
And I think about that. And I think, why do we do this over and over and over again as a species? I think you have to ask more, each one of us has to ask more of ourselves. I think we have to ask more of one another. I think that-- I get asked a lot about hope. I've come to dislike the context of the word hope. Everybody says, do have hope. As if you have hope, then I'm going to feel better about things.
But I think hope, you have to work for hope. You have to deserve having hope. And if you're sitting at the sidelines and feeling badly about what's going on, whether it's in nature or in every continent around the world now, in cultural and social ways, you have to fight for these things.
Because in the absence of that, you are deciding that having hope or imagining an extraordinary future is out of your hands. And if you really believe that, it will be out of your hands. Forget about trying to fit in. Forget about being popular. Forget about being on the right side of things. Wherever one's going to school, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what your family says, your-- you have to decide at a much younger age today than we had to that your future matters, and you're going to have to take up the charge to defend that right to a beautiful, healthy, dignified future for all life. And that's how it goes.
[APPLAUSE]
AUDIENCE: Chai, Kris, big fan. Different reasons, but my question for you, Kris, is in the film, you talk about the challenges with the communities, governments, military. With trusting you all. And in the film also, it says that when Doug passed, that changed the attitudes. And but I've got to assume that there was a lot more to that, a lot more work that had to go on to get these people to come around and trust. And so I was just wondering if you could speak more to that.
KRIS TOMPKINS: I think there are two things. One, these projects are not a function of Doug and Kris. There are hundreds of people working on these projects. Still are. In Chile and Argentina. And we were the exceptions. We were not Chilean and we are not Argentine. So that's one thing.
They made these parks. We can facilitate an idea and get all of us what we need to do it. But the hands and the daily drive are people from their countries who want these-- they want to protect the jewels of their country. So that's one thing, teams.
Second thing is you can't do anything unless you start with the local people who are in these territories. Because they are the geniuses of the place. How do we know where huemul deer should go back in the Patagonia region? Or name anything that is relevant to understanding a situation and certainly the territory. And it has to come from the people who've been there. And that is their home.
So when I decided to go for it and donate everything, which at the same time we were donating Ibera National Park in Argentina, but the story was just too wide to try to make sense of it. That's everybody. I mean, I may have decided that this was the moment. But that has to do with politics. Taking the temperature of everything that these projects imply. And then it's everybody rowing on the same oar. And I mean that in every deep sense of the word.
You can't do this. It's not enough to just have an idea. And the only reason you can realize this stuff is that because you have these team members, many of whom I still work with after all these years. And one of them's right here. Lily is one of the leaders of Argentina.
[APPLAUSE]
Yeah. So if a government, any section, segment says, no, we don't want to do this, probably wouldn't happen. Yeah.
AUDIENCE: I know that Terry has written a lot about this as well. The way-- no, for both of you. I'm interested in your thoughts about ownership. I know in Chile and other places that the destruction has also been of the Indigenous peoples. And in some places, parks have been places for people to go, but not for Indigenous people to live in relation to them.
So I'm curious about the Indigenous communities within the places that you've been and how you think about that.
KRIS TOMPKINS: Well, it's impossible not to think about it, because it's-- you can't separate out human history and conservation in the 21st century. It's very difficult to try to make sure that you're honoring all points of history. We are now working in the territory down on the straits of Magellan. And there are three Indigenous communities down there. Three. Yeah.
And within one community, there are 16 different variations of the Kaweskar people, the Yahgan people, and the Selk'nam. So they are a part of designing these territories. We have never bought anything with anyone living inside.
There's no question that in conservation in different countries, there have been times when Indigenous people were moved out so that the much larger territory could be protected. And I think that is a way of looking at life with a big L that has changed deeply. In our case, we just haven't had those circumstances until really exactly where we are now in the bottom of Chile.
I just don't think you can have a conversation about the dignity of life without talking about human history and the non-human world. And we know that's increasing. The conflicts are increasing. And Indigenous people are losing parts of their territory. In some areas, they get it back. But of course, I think there are many areas where-- and it's not because people are trying to make parks, it's because they're trying to drill for oil or they're going for gold. It's more extractive, on the extractive side.
CHAI VASARHELYI: Oh, good. So there's a passage in the film about this question, and it was so complicated and hard to quantify. But basically one of the things that really impressed me about Doug and Kris and what they were doing is that in one of the parks, in Park Patagonia, there are about 100 homesteaders who were Indigenous. Right, partly Indigenous.
And the issue was that the Chilean government wouldn't give them-- had never issued titles to the land because they wouldn't recognize them. But these families were stuck then, because they desperately wanted to move because of the economics of cattle farming and the economics of working the land, which was not-- like, it really was very bad. But this was their only livelihood.
And so Kris and Doug went family by family and hired the lawyers to do the work to create the titles to the land so that they could legally sell it because they wanted to. And this is, again, one of those details when you make a film. You're like, this is 35 minutes' worth of time on screen. But it's like, it's so essential. It's very important, because it talks about different ways of approaching this question, which is urgent. And it's vital, and it's ethical.
So anyway. So we tried our best. It's six minutes, so you know.
AUDIENCE: Hi. Thank you so much for everything you've been saying in this film. And I'm just amazed and very inspired and moved. You briefly mentioned the idea of deep ecology and spiritual ecology. And I found that that was a thesis that underlied the film, the interconnectedness of things. Could you dive a little bit further into that idea and how it shaped your view of life and relationships and what it means to you?
KRIS TOMPKINS: Yeah, I'll tell you. I have a couple of things to say, and then I'm going to give it to Terry, because I think she's one of the goddesses of, if not deep ecology, straight up some pretty strong versions of it. The idea of deep ecology came from the Norwegian philosopher specialized in Spinoza who wanted to synthesize down as you do when you're studying different philosophers. You're trying to get down farther and farther to the essence of something.
And Arne, who was a great friend of ours, he said this. If all life has intrinsic value, then it follows that our individual behavior has to be such that we honor all life of all beings. Not necessarily sentient. But he was trying to get to the essence of, how as humans do we live as part of a system rather than sitting out or sitting at the center, which is where we are now.
And that's where deep ecology. He didn't want it to be a shallow ecological argument. He wanted it to be a philosophical argument with depth. And that's where it comes from. Nope? All right.
[LAUGHS]
AUDIENCE: Thank you very much for being here. So the film, it has a series of turning points in your and Doug's respective journeys. And one that stood out to me was the moment where Doug decided to leave the corporate world, leave Esprit, and go all in on his conservation initiatives. And you had a similar moment where you decided to join him on that journey.
I'd love to hear your perspective on the psychology of that decision to go all in and focus on ecology, versus perhaps the Patagonia approach of anti-corporation and using business to make a change versus solely dedicating yourself to conservation.
KRIS TOMPKINS: Well in Doug's case, I think he's pretty clear in the film. He was definitely right in the center lane of some of the most consumptive throwaway fashion. It was fabulous. We all, of course, wore it in the '80s. And so he really did take-- he was living this kind of a life in two lanes. One was heavy fashion and architecture, and everything was fabulous. But he was also an extreme kayaker. He was an alpinist. Et cetera, et cetera.
In my case, I just had my 51st anniversary at Patagonia. So and actually never left. I stepped away as CEO, but I've been the trustee for the family and the business until they gave it away last September. And I'm still on the board and so on.
I have come to think that our deep roots, our family roots, the root system at Patagonia, deep friendships, they make you so strong. I think this is why some of us feel so comfortable flinging ourselves out into these extreme situations. Geographically, very-- thousands of miles away from everyone. And I've come to think that at least in the people I know, you think it's because you have shallow roots. And you're just like a tumbleweed and you can go along and bump into things. I don't think so.
I think we were able to make these kinds of decisions with our lives because we have love and support and these histories together that are unfailing. So the risk of doing things like this becomes absolutely doable. And I thought, god, what if you do the same thing for your entire life or your business life? At the end of the day, what do you have to lose?
If I had gone down there and we'd fought like cats in a bag, as Edgar says. And worst case, I could be back in New York City or California the next morning. I was never worried about-- what scared me more than anything is imagining that at 30 years old or 40 years old, I could tell you what my life was going to be. And that was a really frightening thing for me.
And I learned from Yvonne and my first husband, people always saying, how many husbands did you have? Enough.
[LAUGHTER]
That's my new answer. I just-- well, that's it. So I think I'm much more fearful of having a life whose horizon I can see. Because I don't know, maybe we have more than one life, but not one we remember. And I want to go out on this one with as much feistiness and happiness, finally, that you can find.
[APPLAUSE]
TERRY TEMPEST WILLIAMS: Let's thank both Chai and Kris and you and [? Jerilyn ?] for this beautiful evening.
AUDIENCE: I have a very basic dull question. So what kind of language is in the agreement with the Chilean government that they can't screw this up?
TERRY TEMPEST WILLIAMS: Here.
AUDIENCE: It's complicated, yeah.
KRIS TOMPKINS: All the parks in Argentina and Chile are donated with what's in Spanish called the [SPANISH]. And that says that if any of the land that our foundation donated ends up being used for anything that falls out of the original intent and spirit of the gift, it reverts to us. But it's not a fight you want to get into. But if we have to, then of course, we would.
[APPLAUSE]
CHAI VASARHELYI: I'm going to go see if I can help--
AUDIENCE: Hi. Thank you all so much. And thank you for opening this event to the public. I'm actually not a student here and have no affiliation with Harvard, but I'm so grateful to be here. And my question is about women. I look at this stage of women whose art and work has inspired and motivated me for so many years. And I wonder how, Kris, you found a sense of sisterhood in work that really for all of you can be very male dominated and I assume very isolating at times.
KRIS TOMPKINS: I grew up in a family where the expectation for the boys and the girls was completely the same. Yvonne actually preferred to work with women. Because we're better communicators than the other-- whatever's happening. And I was just one of the extraordinarily fortunate women, girls, women who never had to face that.
I remember, gosh, in the early '90s before I retired, Time Magazine was doing this big article on the glass ceiling for women, and they came out to Ventura to interview me. And I was a lousy participant, because-- which I regret today. I was such a knucklehead. I was trying to express my experience as a female in business and in life. In sports, I was a ski racer.
But that wasn't the point. I should have understood back then that I had a microphone, but I didn't know how to use it. Because there is no question that it is still a man's world today.
CHAI VASARHELYI: 100%.
[LAUGHTER]
KRIS TOMPKINS: I mean that. And it's-- everybody is struggling with something. But there is no question in my mind that you have to be faster, smarter, more-- you have to be charming. You have to be everything to get a grip on things in most societies. It's just a fact. It's not that men don't struggle. Far from it. But you just have to just go for it. Don't hold back. Please.
CHAI VASARHELYI: Oh.
AUDIENCE: I'd like Chai to address this. Chai's a big champion in her field.
CHAI VASARHELYI: No, it just-- yes. I mean, the world is not OK for women. And it's really deep. And I face it every single day. And I'm tired of apologizing. Or even when you said the word relentless. I was like, that's so interesting. She's trying to reappropriate the word relentless to not be a bad thing. Because when you say relentless, especially from a woman, it's like a terrible thing.
I don't know, I've been increasingly radicalized. And as a mother of a daughter, her future, she's got less reproductive rights than I did growing up. And part of me, especially in these, in places like Harvard or any of these higher education institutions, we have to be, I don't know, diligent and tenacious about changing this, student by student, decision by decision. Because it's all over higher education. It's all over what we do.
I just directed this film Nyad with two of the most amazing female actors of our time. But I had all-male producers and all-male executives. I mean, it's crazy. And I'm tired-- and I also work with my husband. And he's a very nice human.
[LAUGHTER]
But it's amazing. We have meetings together, and people only look him in the eye. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I've won an Oscar. I'm definitely articulate. And it's just the way it is. So I don't know, I think it's like what's happening in the Middle East or climate change. We just have to talk about it as often as possible, as vocally as possible, as articulately as possible. And make mistakes. But just still freaking talk about it. Anyway.
[APPLAUSE]
Sorry.
And we're good.
TERRY TEMPEST WILLIAMS: We're ready for the film. I will just say that I remember the day not so long ago that my father said, Terry, I'm so glad you have a hobby.
CHAI VASARHELYI: Oh my god.
[LAUGHTER]
Could I just say that I had the opposite of a dad. Who's now right now with our kids, because Jimmy's traveling, too. And so Grandpa's sleeping over to make sure they get to school. But my dad would always say, you're not for sale. You're not for sale. I didn't work so hard for you to be sold. And my mom, my Chinese mom would be like, she can still be a doctor. And he'd be like, do you really want her to put her hands up someone's ass?
[LAUGHTER]
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